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The Thirteenth Hole
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denis
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 7:06 am    Post subject: The Thirteenth Hole Reply with quote

There are seven cut scenes on Studio Canal comparing with Optimum on The 13th Hole.
Itís strange because each passage around the cut scenes of the Studio Canal version has a grainy image on Optimum. For instance, when Steed and Mrs Peel follow Reed to question him (Letís ask Mr Reed), the image is perfect but becomes suddenly grainy for the questioning.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: The Thirteenth Hole Reply with quote

denis wrote:
There are seven cut scenes on Studio Canal comparing with Optimum on The 13th Hole.
Itís strange because each passage around the cut scenes of the Studio Canal version has a grainy image on Optimum. For instance, when Steed and Mrs Peel follow Reed to question him (Letís ask Mr Reed), the image is perfect but becomes suddenly grainy for the questioning.


As I understand it (unless someone knows better), the reinstated scenes don't exist on the original films and only poorer quality recordings do.
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Frankymole
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's superb that Optimum / Canal have restored the missing scenes (whatever the quality available). Apparently the missing bit of Fog was reinstated too.

Were any other episodes incomplete?
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denis
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Studio Canal ? Yes, Castle De'ath and others. I did not know that Fog was cut.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the bit from Fog has gone back in. It was strange to finally see it as I'm so used to the cut which felt very natural .
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darren wrote:
Yes, the bit from Fog has gone back in. It was strange to finally see it as I'm so used to the cut which felt very natural .


Eventually, I would like to see everything restored and corrected...from the
best possible source materials...It's a crime, that a show, as wonderful as
this one has been ,not only to many people, but 'pop culture' has been
treated so shabby....it's maddening! wankers !
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dissolute
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Season 2 and 3 episodes are also generally slightly longer because they've reinstated all the damaged footage that they'd previously removed, thinking that customers used to DVD quality would complain about the picture distortions and interference patterns.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do like this episode. The golf course scenes and clubhouse remind me of the old 9 hole muni golf course my dad and I played when I was growing up
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like this episode too - lot's of fun. The funniest thing about it is Steed's golf swing.
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oneknightsteed
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very enjoyable episode! I love Steed preparing to tee off. Quite absurd!
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also rather humorous to see Mrs. Peel lugging around her golf bag.
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Frankymole
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:54 am    Post subject: Re: The Thirteenth Hole Reply with quote

Darren wrote:
denis wrote:
There are seven cut scenes on Studio Canal comparing with Optimum on The 13th Hole.
Itís strange because each passage around the cut scenes of the Studio Canal version has a grainy image on Optimum. For instance, when Steed and Mrs Peel follow Reed to question him (Letís ask Mr Reed), the image is perfect but becomes suddenly grainy for the questioning.


As I understand it (unless someone knows better), the reinstated scenes don't exist on the original films and only poorer quality recordings do.
The main one I spotted was where a car pulls away from the front of the clubhouse at night, it was very flickery footage and I wondered if it was stock footage, which seemed unlikely given that it's a specific location.

Is there a list anywhere of the original release's missing scenes?
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dissolute
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:11 am    Post subject: Re: The Thirteenth Hole Reply with quote

Frankymole wrote:
Darren wrote:
denis wrote:
There are seven cut scenes on Studio Canal comparing with Optimum on The 13th Hole.
Itís strange because each passage around the cut scenes of the Studio Canal version has a grainy image on Optimum. For instance, when Steed and Mrs Peel follow Reed to question him (Letís ask Mr Reed), the image is perfect but becomes suddenly grainy for the questioning.


As I understand it (unless someone knows better), the reinstated scenes don't exist on the original films and only poorer quality recordings do.
The main one I spotted was where a car pulls away from the front of the clubhouse at night, it was very flickery footage and I wondered if it was stock footage, which seemed unlikely given that it's a specific location.

Is there a list anywhere of the original release's missing scenes?


The VTR inserts (most frequently used for location filming) often are of poorer quality, simply because of how they were filmed, although that's more the case for series 1-3 than 4 onwards.

The Australian broadcast master of "Return of the Cybernauts" for years arbitrarily skipped the scene where Bud Tingwell's character is abducted outside his factory - somewhat ironically, as Bud was an icon of the Australian stage & screen.

They seemed to have sourced a new copy recently as the last time is was screened the scene was shown.
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Frankymole
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't think there were any "VTR inserts" in season 4 - it's all film.

I loved Bud Tingwell in "Catweazle", he was brilliant.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankymole wrote:
I didn't think there were any "VTR inserts" in season 4 - it's all film.

I loved Bud Tingwell in "Catweazle", he was brilliant.



film can be a problem..storage etc
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denis rigg
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recently for first time I did comparison of the three prints of the episode "The Thirteenth Hole": British (DVD from Optimum), French (the print from kiosk-DVD edition), and the US (DVD) - and there are greatest surprise, ladies and gentlemen!!!

Important report:

Must say, I was so impressed with the results, that literally was in two nights thinking about one very unique nuance. But more on that later... Wink
As start, I noticed that French print of the episode was even more cuts than the US (US prints of the episodes were used for Russian release of 4 series/season). While in the US print did not have exactly a minute (surprisingly, such accuracy) with respect to the British, then French has been reduced by more than one and a half minutes.
The scenes that are missing in the American edition, I posted on the its site.
http://steedumbrella.ru/episode_94.html

(info about these cuts were posted before on French site Le Monde des Avengers - except that only the cuts №4 and №7 are not on the American edition)
http://theavengers.fr/index.php/chapeau-melon-bottes-de-cuir/saisons/saison4/le-jeu-s-arrete-au-13

Main results of study were as following (American and French print has two of its advantages before mentioned UK print):

1. Some scenes in British print have "increased screen resolution" regarding other mentioned prints, which in turn themselves presents the screen would slightly truncated by the parties (increased approx. by 1.2% in comparing with UK print in scenes with other resolution).

UK print (shot from one of scenes with "increased screen resolution"):



US print:



But OK, this nuance does not cause discomfort during viewing, and usual viewer will not notice it.


2. This a nuance, of which I thinking for two nights. Prepare to be surprised!

The first thing I thought at finding it, was following, "Do I have hallucinations?" Shocked Then, I got more comfortable in chair, rubbed my eyes, literally, "rewinded the films" of the British and American prints ago and began to compare the footages again.
Shocked "Fantastic! No hallucinations."

That's what I saw when comparing, dear fans:

After the scene when Emma takes a coin from a Steed's hat and asks him: "And what's so important about three o'clock this afternoon anyway?" (this footage was available only on British print) come the next scene: on the golf course Adams, in the presence of Jackson, has his hands against each other, and reaches for the bag with golf clubs.
Duration of footage: 2 seconds.



American and French print was as following: after the scene when Steed lying on the couch puts on his hat, is the footage "on the golf course Adams, in the presence of Jackson, looks at his watch and then puts a golf club on his shoulder".
Duration of footage: 2 seconds.



Thus, we have two different footages in the same place, depending on the print of the episode.

Shocked


I started thinking, how could it happen that the footages in the same place of episode are different - and initially began to analyze in the direction that in some way this UK print was incorrectly edited in whole when there was doing remastering and etc (as a footage, where Dr. Adams looks the watch, is right, because when he puts a golf club on his shoulder and then the shot is changed, we see the character with a golf club on his shoulder on close-up, while in the UK version, Adams had not even picked up any golf club from bag - suddenly when you see change the shot there, something is wrong). I assumed that this footage with Dr. Adams in the UK print probably had to be somewhere earlier in one of the scenes, while the actual footage there is simply missed. Exactly with such thoughts, I went to sleep, and all night "replayed" in a dream this episode, trying to figure out where this mysterious fragment could be inserted.
The next day, by certain reason I came to the conclusion that there was no other place where this footage could be, that is, he was in the right place, as well as the other. This indicated, if I analyzed correctly, that in fact these two fragments were actually just one whole footage in one place.

I kept thinking about it and eventually (today) stopped on the last of the above "point" - UK print for some reason have "missing link", which we can see in other prints. Overall it's seems about three - five seconds of missed footage.

It will be interesting to hear your opinion about the prints of the episode released by other companies or recorded from TV, if you have it. Smile


The next step is checking of the episode prints for "Small Game for Big Hunters"

Best wishes
Denis
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denis
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denis rigg wrote:

(info about these cuts were posted before on French site Le Monde des Avengers - except that only the cuts №4 and №7 are not on the American edition)
http://theavengers.fr/index.php/chapeau-melon-bottes-de-cuir/saisons/saison4/le-jeu-s-arrete-au-13

Very interesting, thanks
I wrote all these differences on Le Monde des Avengers website.
Castle De'Ath had also many cuts on the French kiosk version.
I made comparisons for all episodes of the season four, written under : 'Comparaison ťditions DVD Studio Canal / Optimum (par Denis Chauvet)": Too Many Christmas Trees was not cut but the French TV version was cut. The episodes which suffered cuts are : The Gravediggers, Castle De'Ath, The Thirteenth Hole, The Girl from Auntie, The House That Jack Built.
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denis rigg
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denis wrote:
denis rigg wrote:

(info about these cuts were posted before on French site Le Monde des Avengers - except that only the cuts №4 and №7 are not on the American edition)
http://theavengers.fr/index.php/chapeau-melon-bottes-de-cuir/saisons/saison4/le-jeu-s-arrete-au-13

Very interesting, thanks
I wrote all these differences on Le Monde des Avengers website.
Castle De'Ath had also many cuts on the French kiosk version.
I made comparisons for all episodes of the season four, written under : 'Comparaison ťditions DVD Studio Canal / Optimum (par Denis Chauvet)": Too Many Christmas Trees was not cut but the French TV version was cut. The episodes which suffered cuts are : The Gravediggers, Castle De'Ath, The Thirteenth Hole, The Girl from Auntie, The House That Jack Built.


Thanks, Denis. Smile
I am guided by your info on site for many years when dealing with episodes for Steedumbrella. Wink Denis, it is interesting, you have other Avengers editions with this episode in home collection?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just read this thread for the first time. Does the UK dvd box sets on Studio Canal (Green box for season 4 etc) contain compete episodes Question I'm usually observant, but I didn't notice any cuts compared to my old vhs recordings from the tv. Is the 13th hole complete or has this been cut for the Studio Canal set of dvd's. Darren, you mentioned the missing scene from Fog has been reinstated. Do you mean for the Canal box set (purple box) Question Which scene was reinsated? Clearly I haven't been that observant when watching these box sets! Embarassed Rich.
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denis rigg
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberrich wrote:
I've just read this thread for the first time. Does the UK dvd box sets on Studio Canal (Green box for season 4 etc) contain compete episodes Question I'm usually observant, but I didn't notice any cuts compared to my old vhs recordings from the tv. Is the 13th hole complete or has this been cut for the Studio Canal set of dvd's. Darren, you mentioned the missing scene from Fog has been reinstated. Do you mean for the Canal box set (purple box) Question Which scene was reinsated? Clearly I haven't been that observant when watching these box sets! Embarassed Rich.


Rich, at the moment I did comparisions the 16 episodes of season 4 in the production order, and the most significant differences were noticed in the following episodes on dvd box set by Studio Canal (Green box): Wink

(below, I will not consider cuts in the French kiosk-edition and American edition)

So...

There are several episodes on dvd box set by Studio Canal (Green box), where have scenes with "increased screen resolution" regarding other the prints (like American and French).

More

1. Dial a Deadly Number

There is fading and brightening of the screen between scenes "Steed drinks a glass of drink at Yuill's office" and "Steed down the stairs of the pub", while in the American and French (DVD-kiosk) edition just changed the shot.

2. The Cybermauts

There is fading and brightening of the screen between footages "Emma looks at the punch card" and "Steed in Company United Automation", while in the American and French (DVD-kiosk) edition just changed the shot.

3. Man-Eater of Surrey Green

Other music fragment in the scene, when Lennox comes out from behind the trees on the way to the truck and watches the unloading of bags of fertilizer.
(before it was noticed by Denis Chauvet and posted on site Le Monde des Avengers).

4. The Thirteenth Hole

Unforunately, actually episode been cut on DVD box set by Studio Canal (Green box). There missed following footage: "on the golf course Adams, in the presence of Jackson, looks at his watch and then puts a golf club on his shoulder".



This footage available in US and French (kiosk) print, at least.

That's whole report for now (as for 4 season), but I will inform here on any significant changes in further study. Wink


Yes, missing scene from Fog has been reinstated in DVD box set by Studio Canal (Purple box). Smile Bit was as "When Nigel Green (Sir Geoffrey Armstrong) is murdered, Steed says, "I'll get a doctor." Geoffrey replies, "You forget Steed, I am a doctor. You can get me an undertaker."

I saw it for the first time last year and the whole scene makes slughtly a different feel. Smile


Quote:
Clearly I haven't been that observant when watching these box sets! Embarassed Rich


All right, Rich, sometimes we need about 10 times to see the same scene to notice the change. Wink
For example, exactly Denis Chauvet noticed and posted on site Le Monde des Avengers about other music fragment in one scene of episode Man-Eater of Surrey Green, as before I read it there, I watched three times this bit and not heard (despite I have a good ear for music). Very Happy
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