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Alan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moorlock2003 wrote:
The movie is not worth all the prattling on and on about, as it has widely and correctly been declared terrible by the overwhelming majority of people who had the displeasure of enduring it (and I'm one of them, having sat through it twice). Apologists for this awful movie are simply in denial. Any major studio film not given advance showings for reviewers is a red flag warning that it is a turkey. The only good things about it were a few interesitng visuals (and an $80 million budget should at least give us that) plus the fact that it brought attention to the original series. But honestly, everything else about it reeked.


Now there's an open minded view... Please permit everybody to have their own opinion, and realise that those opinions are every bit as valid as your own.

I love the movie, am a big fan of the television series and the radio series. I'm most certainly not in denial, and frankly I find your comment a tad offensive.

As for Warners barring of the critics from the previews meaning that it was a turkey, I think it points more to their complete lack of understanding of what The Avengers is than any comment upon the quality of the movie (before they hacked it, I mean). They didn't know how to handle it.

If they had one iota of common sense, they'd have kept the movie at its original length, trusted the people they paid to make it and treated it like any other movie. There is no way on earth that it would have ended up with the (mostly undeserved) negative reputation that it has garnered in the wake of their mishandling of the publicity if they hadn't stupidly rung all the alarm bells.
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Timeless A-Peel
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, I'll reiterate that I think fans should give every iteration a try and see if they like it for themselves. When I started with the show, I didn't think it was worth venturing outside the Emmas. I'd heard horrid reviews of TNA. If I hadn't watched it anyway, I wouldn't have discovered a marvelous era of the series that I love to this day. If it's taught me one thing, it's to give everything a shot and ignore what everyone else says. Your opinion's just as valid as anyone else's. I liked TNA long before the tide turned and people started admitting that it wasn't as bad as all that. The point is, unless you give it a shot, you'll never know. Personally, I want as much Avengers as I can get my hands on. Some eras I like better than others, but if I hadn't tried I wouldn't see Cathy chuck a vase at Steed's head, Purdey and Gambit argue about Walter Huston in a car chase, heard the incredibly saucy banter between radio Steed and Emma, chuckle at the Purdey/Gambit lines in Fighting Men, indulge in the surreal weird art in Steed and Mrs. Peel, get the shivers watching Stay Tuned, and yes, wondered at the beautiful scenary and wondefully trippy title sequence in the movie. I love this show. I'm glad there are so many iterations to play with. Watching TNA doesn't make Emma any poorer, and listening to Donald Monat traps quips with Diane Appleby doesn't displace in my mind as Patrick as John Steed. It's a whole 'nother universe. So I encourage everyone to give it all a shot. you may hate it. But you may love it, too. Wink
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kim
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is just a friendly reminder to please feel free to voice your opinions regarding the show, the movie, the books, etc., but do not attack others if their opinions differ from yours.

If you have any questions regarding the forum's terms of service, please feel free to contact any one of the administrative staff.

Kim
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Alan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timeless A-Peel wrote:
Again, I'll reiterate that I think fans should give every iteration a try and see if they like it for themselves. When I started with the show, I didn't think it was worth venturing outside the Emmas. I'd heard horrid reviews of TNA. If I hadn't watched it anyway, I wouldn't have discovered a marvelous era of the series that I love to this day. If it's taught me one thing, it's to give everything a shot and ignore what everyone else says. Your opinion's just as valid as anyone else's. I liked TNA long before the tide turned and people started admitting that it wasn't as bad as all that. The point is, unless you give it a shot, you'll never know. Personally, I want as much Avengers as I can get my hands on. Some eras I like better than others, but if I hadn't tried I wouldn't see Cathy chuck a vase at Steed's head, Purdey and Gambit argue about Walter Huston in a car chase, heard the incredibly saucy banter between radio Steed and Emma, chuckle at the Purdey/Gambit lines in Fighting Men, indulge in the surreal weird art in Steed and Mrs. Peel, get the shivers watching Stay Tuned, and yes, wondered at the beautiful scenary and wondefully trippy title sequence in the movie. I love this show. I'm glad there are so many iterations to play with. Watching TNA doesn't make Emma any poorer, and listening to Donald Monat traps quips with Diane Appleby doesn't displace in my mind as Patrick as John Steed. It's a whole 'nother universe. So I encourage everyone to give it all a shot. you may hate it. But you may love it, too. Wink


Beautifully put, Timeless. Well said. Cool
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Timeless A-Peel
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan wrote:
Timeless A-Peel wrote:
Again, I'll reiterate that I think fans should give every iteration a try and see if they like it for themselves. When I started with the show, I didn't think it was worth venturing outside the Emmas. I'd heard horrid reviews of TNA. If I hadn't watched it anyway, I wouldn't have discovered a marvelous era of the series that I love to this day. If it's taught me one thing, it's to give everything a shot and ignore what everyone else says. Your opinion's just as valid as anyone else's. I liked TNA long before the tide turned and people started admitting that it wasn't as bad as all that. The point is, unless you give it a shot, you'll never know. Personally, I want as much Avengers as I can get my hands on. Some eras I like better than others, but if I hadn't tried I wouldn't see Cathy chuck a vase at Steed's head, Purdey and Gambit argue about Walter Huston in a car chase, heard the incredibly saucy banter between radio Steed and Emma, chuckle at the Purdey/Gambit lines in Fighting Men, indulge in the surreal weird art in Steed and Mrs. Peel, get the shivers watching Stay Tuned, and yes, wondered at the beautiful scenary and wondefully trippy title sequence in the movie. I love this show. I'm glad there are so many iterations to play with. Watching TNA doesn't make Emma any poorer, and listening to Donald Monat traps quips with Diane Appleby doesn't displace in my mind as Patrick as John Steed. It's a whole 'nother universe. So I encourage everyone to give it all a shot. you may hate it. But you may love it, too. Wink


Beautifully put, Timeless. Well said. Cool


Thank you!
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Andrew Pixley
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: The (dreaded) Movie Reply with quote

Hi Kim Smile

kim wrote:
What I want to know is why you like or dislike the movie so much. Don't worry. You won't influence my decision to watch it.


Okay ... here's my take on it.

The press build up to the launch of the film was very, very ominous - particularly the lack of press screenings. So, I dashed along to the first screening in Nottingham (even left work early!) expecting, to be honest, the worst ... even although I'd been so tempted by the photos in the Titan Magazines special. Wow! Weather machines! Wow! Giant teddy bears! Wow! Robotic wasps! Wow! E-Type Jags! As such, part of me did want so much to see it work ...

And I enjoyed it. It wasn't perfect "Avengers" and - because of the terrible, mis-judged cuts made before release - in places it jumped badly without making sense. Uma Thurman doesn't really pull it off sadly, but Ralph Fiennes was pretty acceptable; in each case, the fundamentals were largely there (apart from Emma's gabbling in panic in the padded cell ... wrong, wrong, wrong!). And Jim Broadbent's Mother was fantastic. The little references such as the training ground at the start (with the wonderful bleed in of Laurie Johnson's theme), the cameo by Patrick Macnee, the strange unearthly deserted streets of this London where the 1960s never stopped ... loved all that. Oh, and the music score. I thought that was terrific and was delighted to track down the CD soundtrack.

But ... I can see the problems too. Thankfully, something on the first viewing wormed its way into my heart and made me very fond of it, for all its many faults.

Then again, I enjoy "Wild Wild West" movie too. And "Virtual Murder". And "The Secret Service". So who am I to judge?

But give it a go. I really hope you enjoy it at least in some way. I'd always hope that people enjoy what they see rather than not enjoy it. Makes life that little bit richer ...

All the best

Andrew
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kim
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Hi Andrew!

Thanks for the insight. The dvd should be here tomorrow or Thursday. As for liking Wild Wild West...That was a great movie! It's been a long time since I've seen it, but I really liked it.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Kim Smile

kim wrote:
Thanks for the insight.


No problem. As I say, I'm very fond of the film.

Quote:
As for liking Wild Wild West...That was a great movie! It's been a long time since I've seen it, but I really liked it.


My wife and I loved it when we went to see it at the cinema. It's not 100% faithful to the series by any stretch of the imagination, but its heart is in the right place and it feels more or less right. Again, very, very fond of the original series with Robert Conrad and Ross Martin. The brief moment when the new score segued into the original theme tune from the series was magical ...

All the best

Andrew
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kim
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you haven't seen it, ShaggE and I gave our opinions on the movie over on another thread. Sorry guys, but I simply didn't like the movie.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best thing that I got from the film was that after I'd seen I watched a few episodes that I hadn't previously liked and they came alive for me because they weren't like the film.

I was so excited when I saw the first trailer on a film preview show, cutting together a lot of impressive visual effects and odd scenes can made some things seem so impressive. It's amusing that the trailer sold "Mrs. Peel" from all the stuff with the bad one. It excited me at the time. Of course back in those days the only info came from magazines so it had enough titbits to intrigue.

Via the odd news item, it was clear that the film was being buried. I saw the Lost in Space film (which I enjoyed) the day before seeing the preview of The Avengers and the newest trailer showed. With more focus on dialogue and with the knowledge that Warners had no confidence in it, I had a sinking feeling.

Going to the preview in a small screen with about 15 people, I had a reaction that I never expected to get from the film. It was boring. Scenes kept coming but there seemed to be no rhyme or reason for them. There would be stuff cribbed from the series like the fencing scene which seemed laboured especially for two character who had just met. [SPOLER ]By the time the duo pop up out of the Thames at the time [SPOILER] I just didn't care.

When you love something when it proves disappointing your reaction is far more extreme that if you aren't bothered. I was so excited by the notion of a film (even though all the other sixties series adaptations from the time didn't inspire), a series that (as I perceived it at the time) was perfect for a stylised film remake. It was the disappointment that proved so much.

I started to analyse what it was that had gone wrong as I saw it. The most obvious thing for me was that it proved so uninvolving. I think that the thing that ruins it from the off was the concept behind the world the film inhabits (fine for the TV series 5 version from doesn't work for a film) and making it an epic disaster movie. For an epic disaster movie to work you have to care about what is happening to the world or the people in it. The Avengers was never a disaster movie - the TV series dealt with things before they got out of control if they were going to have disastrous consequences. The Avengerland world doesn't have any people so why should we care what happens to it. They're trying for the glib, throwaway, tongue in cheek quality of series 5 which when combined with the epic disaster just prevents the audience from engaging. The world they created was a cold, uninviting place that wasn't any fun to be in. I suppose as well that the whole sixties that never ended idea just leaves me cold - it's like they're so tired of living that way that everything is on its last legs. The 60's mixed with the 90's aren't obvious bedfellows.

The script is trying to do that impossible thing of keep the original whilst update it and transfer it to the big screen. It comes over as an attempt at trying to include all the greatest hits without a reason for them being there. It wants to pack loads of surreal moments in but they just come out of nowhere and rarely make sense (why is Sir August trying to kill "Mrs. Peel" with giant flying bees when he is obsessed with her). It's ages since I've read it but the original script made far more sense and seemed to take place in a proper world (probably beyond their budget whilst is why it was scaled right down). The whole background with Mrs. Peel was used quite well rather than the throwaway background she had in the actual film. Most of the jokes just aren't funny which doesn't help.

Jeremiah Chechik was the wrong choice as director. I don't like to be cynical but him being the producers son in law must have had something to do with him getting the job. He doesn't really seem to have a style judging from his previous film work. I always thought an Avengers film would benefit from being visually stunning but there's a lot of really awkward visuals. It comes over as someone trying to be visual but ending up with a load of flat, symmetrical shots.

Casting. Fiennes is a serious actor for a reason and that's because he can't do the flippancy that a role like Steed (the Steed in this film) requires. They're going for the Steed that has fun with his job and treats it like a walk in the country but Fiennes just doesn't have the lightness and just comes over as stiff and unconvincing. Poor Uma Thurman is trying to channel the carefree approach that the bored going through the motions Diana Rigg had but at the same time she isn't trying to produce a convincing English accent. She can look good on the posters but that's about it. The two were cast in the attempt to get big name - Fiennes because he's English and Thurman because she looks good in a catsuit. They have to carry the film so if they don't work then the film is in trouble. The whole relationship is messy. It's trying to be in the style of the series, two people totally comfortable with one another who can be playful and mix that with the need for them to get to know one another through the film and then add some awkward sexual tension that doesn't convince for one moment. There's more convincing sexual tension between Invisible Jones and his filling cabinets. Then you've got Sean Connery who is in his own film.

The rest of the cast are all fine actors who are really struggling to find the right tone and never look comfortable. Jim Broadbent gives us a nice version of Mother but is wasted. Eileen Atkins is adequate but given a very limited role - she's just a visual gag of an old lady with a machine gun. I've always loved Fiona Shaw but she is given nothing to do (the blindness thing is very inconsistent).

The design is of the film is very good, they make excellent use of real locations (Sir Augusts greenhouse is the same building as the Board Room). The sets they build are all very impressive. Some of the design makes me think that it would have been really interesting if they'd gone for a black and white film. There are no real bold colours so I think it would have worked, certainly made the film more distinctive but that was probably hugely risky.

Joel McNeely hasty score is effective. It must have been hard for him trying to get the tone from the awkward production. I wish the Avengers theme had been used more but it doesn't really fit the production and McNeely came up with his own version which hints at the style of the original but with a more serious edge. It's not really the kind of score I was hoping for but like the film it has to go for the big disaster movie style. I've got the score on CD and there are some very enjoyable tracks. I wished they'd included the theme as played in the assault course scene.

I still would love the see the full version even though I know it would do nothing to change my view of it. It's not without merit but still remains a massive disappointment.
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Alan
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone who loves the movie, I don't necessarily agree with very much of that post, Darren, but it's refreshing to see a well-thought out critique of the movie that explains itself well and doesn't resort to easy criticism without giving evidence. Cool
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan asks: why close your mind to other 'flavours'of The Avengers, such as the film. I understand the point but I'm tempted to use Paul Newman's line: why go out for a burger when you can have fine steak at home (the show on DVD). Having only watched the film recently, I have to ask the question: how bad was Sean Connery? The 'look' was not bad but the fact that they approached Robbie Coltrane to play Steed says it all really, in terms of casting.
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kim
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They asked Robbie Coltrane to play Steed? That idea alone makes me wonder if they had intended to make the movie more of a parody of the tv show then.

As I said before, I tried to enjoy the movie as a movie and not as an Avengers' themed one. But I simply couldn't. Does that make it a bad movie? No. It simply makes it a movie that I personaly did not enjoy. In my opinion, it was bad simply because 1. It's not the type of movie I like, regardless of what it's about or who is in it. 2. If it was supposed to be a tribute to the tv show, then in my mind it was poorly done. 3. If it was supposed to be a parody, then it could have been done much better.

I almost got the feeling that no one really cared how the movie turned out. Just get it done and get it on the screen.

If and when there comes an uncut version, am I likely to watch it again? Probably not. As it is, I have a dvd for sale if anyone is interested. Laughing

So here's the question...For those of you who enjoyed it, what was it about the movie that you liked? The graphics? The story line? The acting? This is not a jab at the fans of the movie. I really want to know if maybe I should take another look at it sometime in the future.
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Andrew Pixley
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kim Smile

kim wrote:
As I said before, I tried to enjoy the movie as a movie and not as an Avengers' themed one. But I simply couldn't. Does that make it a bad movie? No. It simply makes it a movie that I personaly did not enjoy.


What a refreshingly mature opinion. If there was more of this kind of thinking, there'd be hope for the world yet ...

Quote:
So here's the question...For those of you who enjoyed it, what was it about the movie that you liked? The graphics? The story line? The acting? This is not a jab at the fans of the movie. I really want to know if maybe I should take another look at it sometime in the future.


Okay ... I think the fundamental thing is that I liked the reimagining of the format. The essentials from the excesses of the early colour episodes were there: bloke with brolly and bowler, woman kicking the sh*t out of people in catsuit, nutty villain with crazy plot, strange and deserted over-English English background ...

I'm quite a fan of reimagining things, even if they don't work. It's interesting to see other people's different takes on things. "Batman" is an obvious one; do you want your pulpy gangster ridden 1930s and 1940s comics, your campy moralistic 1960s TV series, your hard-edge bits of new wave comic like "The Killing Joke" or the more recent films which range in colour from black to brilliance.

Of course, "The Avengers" itself was reimagined a lot over the years. Compare "Hot Snow" to "Build a Better Mousetrap" to "What The Butler Saw" to "Who's Who???" to "Take-Over", and it's almost like watching different series ... and that's even before we get to "Cat Amongst the Pigeons" or "Emily". Then there were the comic strips, where I could lap up the bizarre offerings in "Diana" although John Canning's stint on "TV Comic" is imaginative but also a bit indigestible for me. I remember admiring the Cold War thriller of "To Catch a Rat" in book form, but not liking it, and finding "The Cybernauts" a better prose entry .... and also enjoying elements of the Anthony Hussey/John Garforth tomes, even although overall they didn't hit the spot. And I immediately got to enjoy the very plummy Steed who accompanied Emma on all those rather post-modern capers on the South African airwaves ... so the chance to see the format adapted yet again with new people wasn't a hurdle for me. It was something I was looking forward to.

So ... what do I like?

The set pieces: hell, they don't add up to a coherent story, but seeing Big Ben errupt, double decker buses buried in snow, Steed and Emms crossing the lake in their plastic bubbles, the mind-bending architecture of Hallucinogen Hall, the Ministry test zone, the flotilla of robot wasps ... they're great moments.

The villain: August de Wynter's great. Sometimes he doesn't quite fit into the plot, but he's terrific value for money in my book.

The music: A very enjoyable score, and the moments when we segue into Laurie Johnson's theme are delightful.

The killer Teddy Bears: No, I don't know what this has to do with anything either, but the sheer sillyness of it is something which amused me.

The graphics: Yes, I liked the opening titles with all the cool imagery.

The setting: The notion of a modern-day England where the 1960s never stopped was lovely. Reminded me a bit of "Brazil".

The dialogue: There's some gems in there ... the double-entendres from Sir August to Emma in the hothouse are good fun.

The cars: Ohhhhh ... wonderful! How cool are they?

Jim Broadbent: Fantastic or what? Oh, if only he'd been around in the original series!

I can't really defend the story at all. Nor the casting of Ms Thurman. Mr Fiennes more or less pulls it off in my book (even if his suit isn't quite the right cut). But, a bit like the original movie of "Casino Royale", all these elements that don't work somehow combine into something quite to my tastes which eclipses the sum of its meagre parts.

All the best

Andrew
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moorlock2003
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan wrote:
moorlock2003 wrote:
The movie is not worth all the prattling on and on about, as it has widely and correctly been declared terrible by the overwhelming majority of people who had the displeasure of enduring it (and I'm one of them, having sat through it twice). Apologists for this awful movie are simply in denial. Any major studio film not given advance showings for reviewers is a red flag warning that it is a turkey. The only good things about it were a few interesitng visuals (and an $80 million budget should at least give us that) plus the fact that it brought attention to the original series. But honestly, everything else about it reeked.


Now there's an open minded view... Please permit everybody to have their own opinion, and realise that those opinions are every bit as valid as your own.

I love the movie, am a big fan of the television series and the radio series. I'm most certainly not in denial, and frankly I find your comment a tad offensive.

As for Warners barring of the critics from the previews meaning that it was a turkey, I think it points more to their complete lack of understanding of what The Avengers is than any comment upon the quality of the movie (before they hacked it, I mean). They didn't know how to handle it.

If they had one iota of common sense, they'd have kept the movie at its original length, trusted the people they paid to make it and treated it like any other movie. There is no way on earth that it would have ended up with the (mostly undeserved) negative reputation that it has garnered in the wake of their mishandling of the publicity if they hadn't stupidly rung all the alarm bells.


I am as open-minded as anyone, but if you think it is a good movie, you obviously have not seen very many movies. Watch some classics of the past and then tell me The Avengers movie is worthwhile. Don't believe me? How about 107 1 star reviews on Amazon. And compared to the TV show? The movie is an insult to the standards set by the series. Virtually everything about it is deficient. It has been resoundingly called out far and wide as one of the biggest major studio bombs of all time. Kept at its original length? What for, so there's even more to dislike? I hated Fiennes and Thurman as Steed and Mrs. Peel. Badly miscast and out of their league, they were humourless and charmless, the exact opposite of the characters as portrayed by Patrick Macnee and Diana Rigg. Skinny Ralph Fiennes as an action hero? Now that is funny.


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moorlock2003
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avengerholic wrote:
moorlock2003 wrote:
Apologists for this awful movie are simply in denial.


What a stunning burst of arrogance Laughing I'm certainly not in denial, I THINK IT'S BRILLIANT Wink and while not highly praised, I don't see it getting totally hammered in any of the posts above.


No, YOU are the arrogant one. The mere fact that you shouted with your all caps and bold type says a lot about you. The movie is brilliant? You must hate the series then. I adore the series but the movie is totally forgettable. Not hammered? Check Amazon for the 107 one-star reviews.


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Avengerholic
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moorlock2003 wrote:
Avengerholic wrote:
moorlock2003 wrote:
Apologists for this awful movie are simply in denial.


What a stunning burst of arrogance Laughing I'm certainly not in denial, I THINK IT'S BRILLIANT Wink and while not highly praised, I don't see it getting totally hammered in any of the posts above.


No, YOU are the arrogant one. The movie is brilliant? You must hate the series then if that is your opinion. I adore the series but the movie is an outright disaster.


I'm going to ignore this, because by reading it, it's obvious that your not very old. And sometimes it's beneficial to allow kids to let off a little steam.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avengerholic wrote:
moorlock2003 wrote:
Avengerholic wrote:
moorlock2003 wrote:
Apologists for this awful movie are simply in denial.


What a stunning burst of arrogance Laughing I'm certainly not in denial, I THINK IT'S BRILLIANT Wink and while not highly praised, I don't see it getting totally hammered in any of the posts above.


No, YOU are the arrogant one. The movie is brilliant? You must hate the series then if that is your opinion. I adore the series but the movie is an outright disaster.


I'm going to ignore this because by reading it, it's obvious that your not very old. And sometimes it's good for kids to let off a bit of steam.


Oh please, the truth hurts, and some people simply can't take it.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moorlock2003 wrote:
Oh please, the truth hurts, and some people simply can't take it.

Yes of course, you're absolutely right, my aplologies.
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DiVicenzo
The Big Thinker


Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 1478

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by DiVicenzo on Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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