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Which Avengers characters deserved a spin off series
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anti-clockwise
The Bird Who Wrote Too Much


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just loved Legacy of Death. Those would be wonderful characters. Also the episode where there was a city underground. Forgive the amnesia for I can't recall the name right now. The woman villain who acted so nervously initially was hilarious. Also the reverend in Mandrake was quite memorable.
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Frankymole
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That must be "The Living Dead" - was the woman Mandy of FOG (Friends of Ghosts)?

It'd be amusing to see more contretemps between the Scientific Measurement of Ghosts (SMOG) and the FOG people.
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anti-clockwise
The Bird Who Wrote Too Much


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankymole wrote:
That must be "The Living Dead" - was the woman Mandy of FOG (Friends of Ghosts)?

It'd be amusing to see more contretemps between the Scientific Measurement of Ghosts (SMOG) and the FOG people.
Perfect. Yes that's the one. Yes that is a great gag with the SMOG and Fog people.
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paulpdjh
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mousemeat wrote:

yeah, Gale would have interesting to ponder.....but I still will suggest venus smith..as the hoots and catcalls begin to rise in loudness...


It would have been fun if Venus Smith had been introduced in series one as, I think (?), was planned when it was proposed to extend the run to 39 episodes. I'd loved to have been Steed, Dr Keel and Venus in the same episode almost as much as I'd liked to have seen Steed, Mrs Gale and Venus together in series two.

The Avengers history seems to be full of what might have been, which (for me at least) adds to the series appeal.
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mousemeat
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paulpdjh wrote:
mousemeat wrote:

yeah, Gale would have interesting to ponder.....but I still will suggest venus smith..as the hoots and catcalls begin to rise in loudness...


It would have been fun if Venus Smith had been introduced in series one as, I think (?), was planned when it was proposed to extend the run to 39 episodes. I'd loved to have been Steed, Dr Keel and Venus in the same episode almost as much as I'd liked to have seen Steed, Mrs Gale and Venus together in series two.

The Avengers history seems to be full of what might have been, which (for me at least) adds to the series appeal.


i feel the same way.
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Timeless A-Peel
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paulpdjh wrote:
mousemeat wrote:

yeah, Gale would have interesting to ponder.....but I still will suggest venus smith..as the hoots and catcalls begin to rise in loudness...


It would have been fun if Venus Smith had been introduced in series one as, I think (?), was planned when it was proposed to extend the run to 39 episodes. I'd loved to have been Steed, Dr Keel and Venus in the same episode almost as much as I'd liked to have seen Steed, Mrs Gale and Venus together in series two.

The Avengers history seems to be full of what might have been, which (for me at least) adds to the series appeal.


Me, too. I think her character would have fit into the plotlines better if she'd been used as she was intended. She was never written to be a standalone partner, and her character probably wouldn't have come in for as much criticism if she'd been given her intended function.
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anti-clockwise
The Bird Who Wrote Too Much


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The sad part is that in hindsight we can see the foibles in the series but back then they probably were under pressure to write the script and did not have the fore thought that we do. but I agree. Wish we could go back and have them write it all over for us. Very Happy
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Frankymole
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timeless A-Peel wrote:

Me, too. I think her character would have fit into the plotlines better if she'd been used as she was intended. She was never written to be a standalone partner, and her character probably wouldn't have come in for as much criticism if she'd been given her intended function.
It would have from me. The thing I criticise (can't stand) is the bloody musical breaks and her awful songs. She can sing, but the songs are trite and useless (far from swinging 60s or Julie's usual repertoire) and the screech of the plot brakes slamming on is almost audible... even villains of the calibre of Edwin Ritchfield stand around with a simpering smile while she and the dreadful jazz trio "perform".

Just imagine if Venus and Steed had sat down to watch Johnny Dankworth and Cleo Laine do a proper jazzy musical break instead. Bliss. In fact just chuck away the Avengers plot and have a decent jazz evening.
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anti-clockwise
The Bird Who Wrote Too Much


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankymole wrote:
Timeless A-Peel wrote:

Me, too. I think her character would have fit into the plotlines better if she'd been used as she was intended. She was never written to be a standalone partner, and her character probably wouldn't have come in for as much criticism if she'd been given her intended function.
It would have from me. The thing I criticise (can't stand) is the bloody musical breaks and her awful songs. She can sing, but the songs are trite and useless (far from swinging 60s or Julie's usual repertoire) and the screech of the plot brakes slamming on is almost audible... even villains of the calibre of Edwin Ritchfield stand around with a simpering smile while she and the dreadful jazz trio "perform".

Just imagine if Venus and Steed had sat down to watch Johnny Dankworth and Cleo Laine do a proper jazzy musical break instead. Bliss. In fact just chuck away the Avengers plot and have a decent jazz evening.
I haven't seen her episodes yet. But they are that bad?
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Timeless A-Peel
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankymole wrote:
Timeless A-Peel wrote:

Me, too. I think her character would have fit into the plotlines better if she'd been used as she was intended. She was never written to be a standalone partner, and her character probably wouldn't have come in for as much criticism if she'd been given her intended function.
It would have from me. The thing I criticise (can't stand) is the bloody musical breaks and her awful songs. She can sing, but the songs are trite and useless (far from swinging 60s or Julie's usual repertoire) and the screech of the plot brakes slamming on is almost audible... even villains of the calibre of Edwin Ritchfield stand around with a simpering smile while she and the dreadful jazz trio "perform".

Just imagine if Venus and Steed had sat down to watch Johnny Dankworth and Cleo Laine do a proper jazzy musical break instead. Bliss. In fact just chuck away the Avengers plot and have a decent jazz evening.


It does feel a bit like the show's gone on intermission, doesn't it? They don't mesh them into the plot very well, I agree, but I actually don't mind them. They could have just let the action run on with her singing in the background more often, or found creative ways to sneak them in. Venus singing and playing the piano in an attempt to put herself at ease while being held at gunpoint comes to mind. I can imagine the songs were a godsend in terms of buying time to get things together between scenes, though.

anti-clockwise wrote:
I haven't seen her episodes yet. But they are that bad?


They've taken a bit of abuse, mostly because Venus isn't a karate-chopping force of nature Avengers girl--her skill set isn't too conducive to giving her much to do. Steed basically lies and manipulates his way into getting her to do things for him, and she generally only realises she's been dropped in the deep end when she's got a gun pointed at her. The character was conceived as an addition to the Keel era--she would have been Steed and Keel's eyes and ears in seedy nightclubs, bringing them intel as needed--so she was never meant to be a full-on partner, which explains why she seems ineffective (she's probably about as effective as any of us would be in the same situation. Venus at least manages to stay alive, despite some pretty daunting odds!). She's also criticised for repeatedly trusting Steed despite his habit of manipulating her into some pretty bad situations, but if you read her backstory in her character profile--she comes from a big family that she misses quite badly, and she has lots of older brothers, so she sees Steed as kind of a surrogate big brother, and cuts him a lot of slack as a result. She does start to tell him where to get off by the end, though. Wink So I love her--she's sweet, young, and upbeat, and if you listen to Julie Stevens on the commentary, she's just as lovely in person. I suggest watching her episodes for yourself and giving her a chance for what she is. Just don't expect another Cathy or Emma.
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anti-clockwise
The Bird Who Wrote Too Much


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I haven't seen Julie Stevens commentary either. Will have to take a look. Odd to have a name Venus.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anti-clockwise wrote:
Oh I haven't seen Julie Stevens commentary either. Will have to take a look. Odd to have a name Venus.


Maybe her mother was into astrology?
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anti-clockwise
The Bird Who Wrote Too Much


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timeless A-Peel wrote:
anti-clockwise wrote:
Oh I haven't seen Julie Stevens commentary either. Will have to take a look. Odd to have a name Venus.


Maybe her mother was into astrology?
Could be. Plus a male writer or two.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anti-clockwise wrote:
Timeless A-Peel wrote:
anti-clockwise wrote:
Oh I haven't seen Julie Stevens commentary either. Will have to take a look. Odd to have a name Venus.


Maybe her mother was into astrology?
Could be. Plus a male writer or two.


They had Venus Brown later on in season five as well.
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Frankymole
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It also gets very contrived, trying to find a situation that would require Steed to use a night club singer as his aide. "The Decapod" has him virtually pimping her out as a call girl to a foreign diplomat, and "Chorus of Frogs" has her on a cruising yacht. Stuff like "Box of Tricks" at least has her in an entertainment venue, however tedious the resulting situation.

I was quite glad when they ditched the old scripts / situations (which sadly meant the enjoyably acerbic Dr Keel substitute, Martin King, had to go as well) and just concentrated on Cathy who was more than capable of giving Steed lip for being so cavalier about his partners' safety. Sadly Venus didn't even talk a good fight!

Julie Stevens is marvellous, though. Lovely person and does some great acting. It's just the character and her effect on the plots that I don't like Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankymole wrote:
It also gets very contrived, trying to find a situation that would require Steed to use a night club singer as his aide. "The Decapod" has him virtually pimping her out as a call girl to a foreign diplomat, and "Chorus of Frogs" has her on a cruising yacht. Stuff like "Box of Tricks" at least has her in an entertainment venue, however tedious the resulting situation.

I was quite glad when they ditched the old scripts / situations (which sadly meant the enjoyably acerbic Dr Keel substitute, Martin King, had to go as well) and just concentrated on Cathy who was more than capable of giving Steed lip for being so cavalier about his partners' safety. Sadly Venus didn't even talk a good fight!

Julie Stevens is marvellous, though. Lovely person and does some great acting. It's just the character and her effect on the plots that I don't like Smile


Yeah, it does get a bit hard to accept that Steed has that many assignments all conveniently set in seedy nightclubs (maybe he asked for them special? Wink ).

I think part of the reason I like having the Venus and Dr. King episodes in the mix for season 2 is that it breaks up the tension of the Steed/Cathy dynamic into manageable chunks. When we get to season 3, I miss the Venus/Dr. King "relief valve" to break up all the squabbling.
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Frankymole
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's very true.

Though I (like Steed, it seems) find squabbling an aphrodisiac. Who was it (long-time married actor) who said recently that the reason his marriage had lasted so long was that he and his wife agreed on absolutely nothing?

Anyway, it's a shame that many new viewers see them in production order rather than broadcast order. Even I, rabid Jon Rollason/Martin King fan that I am, don't want to blow all the fun in one go...
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do we know the broadcast order? Just curious but how many episodes was Venus in? For some reason I recall 3 but i'm not sure and too lazy to go to my boxset. Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankymole wrote:
It also gets very contrived, trying to find a situation that would require Steed to use a night club singer as his aide. "The Decapod" has him virtually pimping her out as a call girl to a foreign diplomat, and "Chorus of Frogs" has her on a cruising yacht. Stuff like "Box of Tricks" at least has her in an entertainment venue, however tedious the resulting situation.

I was quite glad when they ditched the old scripts / situations (which sadly meant the enjoyably acerbic Dr Keel substitute, Martin King, had to go as well) and just concentrated on Cathy who was more than capable of giving Steed lip for being so cavalier about his partners' safety. Sadly Venus didn't even talk a good fight!

Julie Stevens is marvellous, though. Lovely person and does some great acting. It's just the character and her effect on the plots that I don't like Smile



the problem was the way the character was set up..and perceived...the scripts, at times were lacking in certain respects...but the program evolved...
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Timeless A-Peel
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankymole wrote:
That's very true.

Though I (like Steed, it seems) find squabbling an aphrodisiac. Who was it (long-time married actor) who said recently that the reason his marriage had lasted so long was that he and his wife agreed on absolutely nothing?

Anyway, it's a shame that many new viewers see them in production order rather than broadcast order. Even I, rabid Jon Rollason/Martin King fan that I am, don't want to blow all the fun in one go...


Some squabbling can be (see Remington Steele), but with Steed and Cathy I often get the uncomfortable feeling that Steed's this close to losing it completely and backhanding her. The great thing about Cathy is that she'd whack him right back (and often does), but I find it makes for unpleasant viewing. Either that or it just gets on my nerves and I start to wonder why Cathy doesn't just walk out already. Which she does. I'm just amazed it took that long. Wink

I do wish all the Dr. King's weren't front-loaded as well. It makes it feel more like a mini-season at the start of the season, separate from the rest. Actually, to bring this back on-topic, I would've liked a Dr. King mini-series, maybe showing where he was pre-Steed and how he got mixed up in it all. Did he know Dr. Keel? Did Keel give Steed King's name? Is he actually Tara's second cousin? Inquiring minds want to know. Wink

anti-clockwise wrote:
How do we know the broadcast order? Just curious but how many episodes was Venus in? For some reason I recall 3 but i'm not sure and too lazy to go to my boxset.


Venus had six episodes; Dr. King had three. Broadcast orders can be found via TV listings and studio documentation and the like from the time, though the actual order they were shown in often varied by region and country.
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