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peabody
Little Wonder
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 226
Location: MACS0647-JD
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 Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:36 am Post subject: 6.19 - Killer |
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Discuss, review and rate Killer.
Written by Tony Williamson
Directed by Cliff Owen |
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denis rigg
The Bird Who Wrote Too Much
Joined: 06 Sep 2008
Posts: 1886
Location: Moscow, Russia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:08 am Post subject: Re: Killer |
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Deleted scene from Killer.
I think this shot of the scene that follows after the death of Trancer in the Steed's flat. 
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MikeR
Epic
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 1106
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:53 am Post subject: |
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This scene was actually replaced by freshly written material involving Macnee, Newell and Jennifer Croxton.
I don't know if Brian Clemens did the new material (though I would think so).
The screenplay is pure Avengers, with Tony Williamson dialing into the style of the series, having been away for a time working on both The Champions and Adam Adamant Lives! |
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denis rigg
The Bird Who Wrote Too Much
Joined: 06 Sep 2008
Posts: 1886
Location: Moscow, Russia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| MikeR wrote: | This scene was actually replaced by freshly written material involving Macnee, Newell and Jennifer Croxton.
I don't know if Brian Clemens did the new material (though I would think so).
The screenplay is pure Avengers, with Tony Williamson dialing into the style of the series, having been away for a time working on both The Champions and Adam Adamant Lives! |
Yes, there is a possibility that scene was replaced, but I don't think that it was the fresh material. I am sure that the all necessary scenes already were rewritten for Diana when it became known that Linda Thorson goes on vacation.
Most likely - just a shortened episode, as in the case with many other episodes of the series.
I think the original sequence was as follows:
1. Death of Trancer.
2. Classroom. Instructions for agents in respect to Remak or something like that. (In a deleted shot, we see Jennifer Croxton or her understudy in the first row).
3. After instructions Steed talks with Mother and on background agents leaves the room.
4. Acquaintance Steed and Diana.
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anti-clockwise
The Bird Who Wrote Too Much
Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 1683
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| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Denis You are amazing. How did you find this pic? Would be interesting to know more about the scene cut but great photo. thanks for sharing! 
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denis rigg
The Bird Who Wrote Too Much
Joined: 06 Sep 2008
Posts: 1886
Location: Moscow, Russia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| anti-clockwise wrote: | | Denis You are amazing. How did you find this pic? Would be interesting to know more about the scene cut but great photo. thanks for sharing! |
This amazing pic was previously only pay, he was in the photo slides of the episode "Killer" - the images were so small that it was difficult to see anything. Well, I always thought that there is nothing special.
Now these slides got in freely available and there was a revelation.
Unfortunately I can not tell you more about this scene, because I have not read the script of the episode.
I hope that the script is in the last British DVD set of 6 season, which I ordered the recently. I will get it in January or February.
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MikeR
Epic
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 1106
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| denisrigg wrote: | | anti-clockwise wrote: | | Denis You are amazing. How did you find this pic? Would be interesting to know more about the scene cut but great photo. thanks for sharing! |
This amazing pic was previously only pay, he was in the photo slides of the episode "Killer" - the images were so small that it was difficult to see anything. Well, I always thought that there is nothing special.
Now these slides got in freely available and there was a revelation.
Unfortunately I can not tell you more about this scene, because I have not read the script of the episode.
I hope that the script is in the last British DVD set of 6 season, which I ordered the recently. I will get it in January or February. |
Unfortunately, the shooting script for Killer is not on the DVD set. What you get for this episode is a set of dialogue sheets, which only duplicate what dialogue was spoken in the episode and so they are of no assistance when attempting to locate the replaced scene.
In my opinion, the first scene where Steed met Lady Diana Forbes-Blakely replaces this scene where Mother is lecturing trainee agents at a training facility and Steed appears to give the students the benefit of his professional experience.
The only reason I can think of to cause this rewrite and reshoot, was that Albert Fennell who was technically in charge of The Avengers, considered that the scene did not work. However, as it was filmed, it does indicate that the original scene was in Tony Williamson’s shooting script.
I did exchange lots of correspondence with Williamson over the past three years of his life and he informed me that he always came up with the ideas for his screenplays, which he discussed in detail with Brain Clemens, although he rarely visited the studios. |
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anti-clockwise
The Bird Who Wrote Too Much
Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 1683
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:41 am Post subject: |
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You know it is too bad that we can't see the original scripts. It really would be interesting to see how it evolved. The Girl from Auntie is a great example. According to Roger Marshall what he wrote ( which unfortunately he can't recall) does not resemble what he wrote.
That makes a lot of sense Mike but it would be so wonderful if we could see it in writing.
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MikeR
Epic
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 1106
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Killer |
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| denisrigg wrote: | Deleted scene from Killer.
I think this shot of the scene that follows after the death of Trancer in the Steed's flat.
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I saw this photograph about 18 months ago and then I instantly realised that it does not appear in the episode, but that the only place it could really fit is when Steed visits Mother and he is introduced to Jennifer Croxton's character for the first time. |
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MikeR
Epic
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 1106
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| anti-clockwise wrote: | You know it is too bad that we can't see the original scripts. It really would be interesting to see how it evolved. The Girl from Auntie is a great example. According to Roger Marshall what he wrote ( which unfortunately he can't recall) does not resemble what he wrote.
That makes a lot of sense Mike but it would be so wonderful if we could see it in writing. |
There are quite a number of scripts that are now missing and some of this is down to the official copyright holder, who I'm sure was Weintraub Entertainment at the time (the late 80s), deciding to reduce paperwork. As a result they foolishly hired a company to transcribe all the scripts thay had into dialogue sheets, which reduced the amount of paper. However, the saving was minimal and the end result was that the original screenplays were discarded.
Hence the chance of obtaining scripts for the series now probably lies with people who worked on the show.
Last edited by MikeR on Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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darren
The Bird Who Wrote Too Much
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 1896
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:09 am Post subject: |
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This deleted sequence, I always assumed it came before Steed meeting Forbes which seems to be after the briefing session (both have the REMAK writing on the blackboard).
Although there's some good stuff in the episode, I felt the loss of Tara/Linda. Forbes was too much a Emma Peel substitute by Clemens who hated Tara. I've warmed to the character since, in a large part due to Jennifer Croxton being so lovely on the commentary.
Visually it's quite a tatty looking episode. Cliff Owens direction is very stylish but the sets and chosen locations are a bit naff.
6/10 |
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Frankymole
A Touch of Brimstone
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 4207
Location: Carmadoc research establishment
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| MikeR wrote: | | anti-clockwise wrote: | You know it is too bad that we can't see the original scripts. It really would be interesting to see how it evolved. The Girl from Auntie is a great example. According to Roger Marshall what he wrote ( which unfortunately he can't recall) does not resemble what he wrote.
That makes a lot of sense Mike but it would be so wonderful if we could see it in writing. |
There are quite a number of scripts that are now missing and some of this is down to the official copyright holder, who I'm sure was Weintraub Entertainment at the time (the late 80s), deciding to reduce paperwork. As a result they foolishly hired a company to transcribe all the scripts thay had into dialogue sheets, which reduced the amount of paper. However, the saving was minimal and the end result was that the original screenplays were discarded.
Hence the chance of obtaining scripts for the series now probably lies with people who worked on the show. |
IanBeard said on Roobarb's that: "From what I've heard the situation is even worse - at some point it was decided to save space again by putting the transcript copies onto microfilm, but that was done in such a slipshod manner that pages were skipped, the blank side was copied, pages were folded meaning info was missing, etc. And then the physical paper was sent to waste.
"Then, a few years later it was decided that, "Yes, we do need paper copies" - so now they have scrappy sheets taken from poor microfilm of what wasn't even the original paperwork in the first place."
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MikeR
Epic
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 1106
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| Frankymole wrote: | | MikeR wrote: | | anti-clockwise wrote: | You know it is too bad that we can't see the original scripts. It really would be interesting to see how it evolved. The Girl from Auntie is a great example. According to Roger Marshall what he wrote ( which unfortunately he can't recall) does not resemble what he wrote.
That makes a lot of sense Mike but it would be so wonderful if we could see it in writing. |
There are quite a number of scripts that are now missing and some of this is down to the official copyright holder, who I'm sure was Weintraub Entertainment at the time (the late 80s), deciding to reduce paperwork. As a result they foolishly hired a company to transcribe all the scripts thay had into dialogue sheets, which reduced the amount of paper. However, the saving was minimal and the end result was that the original screenplays were discarded.
There are horror stories regarding how Weintraub handled the Associated British Picture Corporation archive (including The Avengers) before selling it on several years later. The archive was held at Pinewood Studios at the time (surprisingly not Elstree Studios) and the staff, who in some cases had worked with it since Associated British Picture Corporation days, were made redundant.
Hence the chance of obtaining scripts for the series now probably lies with people who worked on the show. |
IanBeard said on Roobarb's that: "From what I've heard the situation is even worse - at some point it was decided to save space again by putting the transcript copies onto microfilm, but that was done in such a slipshod manner that pages were skipped, the blank side was copied, pages were folded meaning info was missing, etc. And then the physical paper was sent to waste.
"Then, a few years later it was decided that, "Yes, we do need paper copies" - so now they have scrappy sheets taken from poor microfilm of what wasn't even the original paperwork in the first place." |
There are horror stories regarding how Weintraub handled the Associated British Picture Corporation archive (including The Avengers) before selling it on several years later. The archive was held at Pinewood Studios at the time (surprisingly not Elstree Studios) and the staff, who in some cases had worked with it since Associated British Picture Corporation days, were made redundant. |
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anti-clockwise
The Bird Who Wrote Too Much
Joined: 17 May 2013
Posts: 1683
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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That is one sad story. It sounds like you guys should have been in charge and all of us would have the old scripts. 
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John Johnson
Nutshell
Joined: 19 Dec 2009
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| One of my favourite episodes of the series, mostly because of Jennifer Croxton. It's a pity we never saw more of Lady Diana Forbes-Blakeney. |
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Frankymole
A Touch of Brimstone
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 4207
Location: Carmadoc research establishment
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, it would've been interesting if she'd been introduced earlier - I wonder how she would have got on with Emma Peel? Rather like the planned three-handers for season 2 which never came off (I always wonder what Cathy would've made of Venus Smith, or Venus of Dr Keel/King). I suspect Emma would've been quite snooty about her.
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Lhbizness
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| I enjoyed this episode - Lady Diana Forbes-Blakeney is marvelous and has a nice, easy rapport with Steed (as was mentioned, she's basically Emma Peel Redux). The "house/building designed as a killer" motif is done a LOT in The Avengers, sometimes to excellent effect (House that Jack Built) and sometimes less so (Complex). But this one I think worked, even if I could have done without the repetition of agents being killed in the same way. |
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Frankymole
A Touch of Brimstone
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 4207
Location: Carmadoc research establishment
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:22 am Post subject: |
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I found Lady Diana rather cold, aloof and snooty - each to their own I guess!
Repetitive deaths for the first two acts (until Steed 'n' partner track down the repetitive killer) are something of a trope of the colour seasons, sadly. Rodney's right that the narrower pool of writers makes this more formulaic.
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Lhbizness
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:35 am Post subject: |
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I didn't find her particularly aloof - I like the scene where they split a drink before going after the bad guys. She might seem cold when compared with Tara, though - but she's very capable. She's got that subtle Englishness that sometimes comes off as cold (Steed and Emma have it too), but I think the actress gives a one-off character a good dose of warmth and intelligence.
Game suffers from the same problem of repetition - the characters might not be aware of what's happening, but the audience is aware and it gets boring. |
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Timeless A-Peel
A Touch of Brimstone
Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 4866
Location: New Scotland, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:31 am Post subject: |
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People always cite Forbes as an Emma throwback, but she never seems particularly Emmaish to me. She has the standard Avengers woman qualities, but beyond that I don't see a great deal of similarity between them. Perhaps she was meant to be an Emma knock-off, but she feels like her own character to me.
I don't mind Forbes, but I think they could have done a bit more with her character, even within the confines of the one-episode stint she was given. Steed christens her Forbes, and then never actually gets to call her that! There are lots of little threads that they hint at for her backstory, but the episode doesn't really explicate on any of them, which is frustrating. I really wish she'd gotten a second episode, because I feel like the character had potential that wasn't realised the first time around. Jennifer Croxton gives her all, though--she even sprained her ankle doing her fights.
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