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Bright Horizons book
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Speed Six
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Joined: 19 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denis wrote:
Honestly, I do not think that the Avengers writers had Freudian symbolism in mind when they developed the scenarios. Of course, there are some subtle devil minds (some of them are not even translated into French) but nothing to do with the positioning of champagne bottles! Champagne is only part of celebration, nothing else.


In the case of the Murder Market's cake tasting scene the positioning of the champagne bottles is absolutely central to the production team's intent. It's the pay off to all the preceding action and is very carefully staged to make a point about the seductive and self indulgent nature of Steed's initiation into the group.
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Speed Six
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denis wrote:
Of course, the author had the right to let his libido filter in the writing, it was even recommended ... but I doubt that Tony Williamson thought of the Freudian involvement on these accessories while writing the golf and tuba scene and the positioning of the champagne bottles in the Togetherness premises.


The tuba scene wasn't written by Williamson - his scene had Steed and Mrs.Peel playing snooker (which could be given an equally Freudian interpretation). The tuba/golf idea was a later idea, presumably from Brian Clemens and was initially intended to feature Seed performing on the tuba and Mrs.Peel playing with her golf club. The roles were reversed at MacNee's suggestion, which led to a different Freudian reading altogether ! I'll have to take another look at the script to see whether Williamson had given any indication regarding the positioning of the champagne bottles, but it's most likely their visual positioning was arranged by the director.

On a more general note, the use of intentionally Freudian references or innuendo was a regular feature of the Avengers on film, particularly with regard to the use of champagne, guns or flowers.
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Speed Six
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just checked the Murder Market script, and the cake tasting scene is a later addition dating from November 1964 (Williamson's draft is dated October) and clearly mentions the row of champagne bottles, so this idea is most likely to have come from Clemens.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed Six wrote:
denis wrote:
Honestly, I do not think that the Avengers writers had Freudian symbolism in mind when they developed the scenarios. Of course, there are some subtle devil minds (some of them are not even translated into French) but nothing to do with the positioning of champagne bottles! Champagne is only part of celebration, nothing else.


In the case of the Murder Market's cake tasting scene the positioning of the champagne bottles is absolutely central to the production team's intent. It's the pay off to all the preceding action and is very carefully staged to make a point about the seductive and self indulgent nature of Steed's initiation into the group.


What does homosexuality have to do with this episode? The plot concerns hetrosexual relationships that potentially lead to murder for profit. The sexuality of the Togetherness masterminds is certainly ambiguous but what does that have to do with enlisting Steed into joining their schemes?
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denis
Have Fingers... Will Type!


Joined: 06 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway, trying to link Freud with The Avengers is out of topic. NEVER, had I heard of any scriptwriters, actors or members of the cast making an allusion to him. But it's maybe in to invent some links like that.
As I had written above : 'we can write anything on any series', especially four or five decades after the shooting.
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Frankymole
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The great triumph of Freud is that it's not stated intent - it all comes out subconsciously in everything we do. The makers would not necessarily know that they were expressing their subconscious desires on screen Smile
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Speed Six
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan wrote:
Speed Six wrote:
denis wrote:
Honestly, I do not think that the Avengers writers had Freudian symbolism in mind when they developed the scenarios. Of course, there are some subtle devil minds (some of them are not even translated into French) but nothing to do with the positioning of champagne bottles! Champagne is only part of celebration, nothing else.


In the case of the Murder Market's cake tasting scene the positioning of the champagne bottles is absolutely central to the production team's intent. It's the pay off to all the preceding action and is very carefully staged to make a point about the seductive and self indulgent nature of Steed's initiation into the group.


What does homosexuality have to do with this episode? The plot concerns hetrosexual relationships that potentially lead to murder for profit. The sexuality of the Togetherness masterminds is certainly ambiguous but what does that have to do with enlisting Steed into joining their schemes?


I think you need to understand the concept of subtext to appreciate the references to homosexuality - on the surface the scene may not directly be 'about' homosexuality, but if you understand the use of visual symbolism and read the imagery in this scene and other scenes in the episode you can see that the programme's writers and director were alluding to various 'kinky' sexual practices throughout The Murder Market. As mentioned earlier this is what Brian Clemens meant when he described the series as working on different levels.
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Speed Six
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denis wrote:
Anyway, trying to link Freud with The Avengers is out of topic. NEVER, had I heard of any scriptwriters, actors or members of the cast making an allusion to him. But it's maybe in to invent some links like that.
As I had written above : 'we can write anything on any series', especially four or five decades after the shooting.


I don't think trying to link Freud with the Avengers is at all off topic. The series drew on many cultural references, from classic movies and literature to contemporary events. Hitchcock films in particular drew on Freudian symbolism, and being a fan of Hitchcock, Clemens applied similar thinking to his writing for The Avengers.
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Rodders
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Joined: 03 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Clemens once said, it's all there IF you want to see it.
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denis
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A review of the book will be available on the French site before the end of January. Stay tuned. Wink
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denis
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My review of the book. I think no contributor has been forgotten.
http://theavengers.fr/index.php/chapeau-melon-bottes-de-cuir/faq/les-liveres/guides#a18
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Frankymole
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most enjoyable review!

Google Translate renders "Man in a Suitcase" ("L’homme ŕ la valise") as "The Man With the Bag" Smile
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Rodders
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonderful all-inclusive review from Denis. It is a great shame he is no longer contributing to The New Avengers book as both Denis and Bernard offer superb slants on the show.
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Rodders
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denis thinks that Margo is obsessed with the phallus in her chapters. Not sure what he will make of her chapter on Take-Over in that case!
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mousemeat
A Touch of Brimstone


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan wrote:
Speed Six wrote:
denis wrote:
Honestly, I do not think that the Avengers writers had Freudian symbolism in mind when they developed the scenarios. Of course, there are some subtle devil minds (some of them are not even translated into French) but nothing to do with the positioning of champagne bottles! Champagne is only part of celebration, nothing else.


In the case of the Murder Market's cake tasting scene the positioning of the champagne bottles is absolutely central to the production team's intent. It's the pay off to all the preceding action and is very carefully staged to make a point about the seductive and self indulgent nature of Steed's initiation into the group.


What does homosexuality have to do with this episode? The plot concerns hetrosexual relationships that potentially lead to murder for profit. The sexuality of the Togetherness masterminds is certainly ambiguous but what does that have to do with enlisting Steed into joining their schemes?

interesting notion..but the show did seem to focus on 'straight' relationships and marriage...then again, being 'gay' in the UK, wasn't exactly thought of inna nice way..and same sex marriages, were decades in the future.....
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Speed Six
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denis wrote:
My review of the book. I think no contributor has been forgotten.
http://theavengers.fr/index.php/chapeau-melon-bottes-de-cuir/faq/les-liveres/guides#a18


Hmm - sorry to see that Denis thinks I have a 'disturbed mind' for stating a clearly obvious allusion on the part of the programme makers ! As I've said before the series was produced by sophisticated people with a sophisticated sense of humour and I think I'd be entitled to see this a personal insult.
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denis
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed Six wrote:
denis wrote:
My review of the book. I think no contributor has been forgotten.
http://theavengers.fr/index.php/chapeau-melon-bottes-de-cuir/faq/les-liveres/guides#a18


Hmm - sorry to see that Denis thinks I have a 'disturbed mind' for stating a clearly obvious allusion on the part of the programme makers ! As I've said before the series was produced by sophisticated people with a sophisticated sense of humour and I think I'd be entitled to see this a personal insult.
I see it as a pun with 'devil mind' but if you see it as 'insult', I can change it...For the rest, I do not think it's an obvious allusion...
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MikeR
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denis wrote:
My review of the book. I think no contributor has been forgotten.
http://theavengers.fr/index.php/chapeau-melon-bottes-de-cuir/faq/les-liveres/guides#a18


Denis

You have looked at a lot of reference books about The Avengers, but there's one missing.
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denis
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I have bought yours. Not read yet. It will take time. I need holidays. Probably, the thickest of my collection.
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MikeR
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denis wrote:
No, I have bought yours. Not read yet. It will take time. I need holidays. Probably, the thickest of my collection.


Denis

I'm pleased to hear it, though not to take anything away from Rodney, who has published quite a number of books on both The Avengers and The New Avengers.
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