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Alan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lhbizness wrote:
I am entirely at a loss as to why this is not fanfiction - your explanation implies that fanfiction is lesser (e.g. it is not professional, even if written by professional writers, because it's not monetized?) and that these adaptations are legitimate canonical additions. It is my opinion that they are not. Nor am I clear as to why you care to make the distinction between what Big Finish does and what fanfiction does, or why there's a problem with labeling Big Finish's productions as fanfiction. It seems to be the same thing, with the addition of the copyright holders (who had no direct involvement in producing The Avengers in the first place) making their productions "legitimate" and, it is implied, of greater canonical or artistic value. If I've misinterpreted what you've said, I'm sorry, but there certainly appears to be a value judgement here.


Please explain where I have said fan fiction is "lesser". I have said, all along that it is different. It's not me that's using "glorified fan fiction" as a barb, after all.

And as for canon, we all have our individual ideas of what is canonical and what isn't. I don't consider the audios canonical, but that's just my personal take on things. YMMV.

Quote:
No, my criticisms are not blinkered any more than your praises are, and I resent that implication, or that this criticism is to be dismissed because I don't like the product.


I've not even praised the productions in this thread - the nearest I've got is to say that I disagree that Wadham's interpretation is a caricature.

I haven't said your criticism is to be dismissed, but that your opinions based on the plays you've heard are prejudicing you to subsequent releases. For instance, because you are highly critical of Julian Wadham you're prejudiced against the Diana adaptations.

I've enjoyed the Lost Episodes releases, and therefore am open-minded to these new adaptations. Yes, my opinion colours my being receptive to them, but I haven't come out and said they will be brilliant either. How can I know?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan wrote:
Lhbizness wrote:
I am entirely at a loss as to why this is not fanfiction - your explanation implies that fanfiction is lesser (e.g. it is not professional, even if written by professional writers, because it's not monetized?) and that these adaptations are legitimate canonical additions. It is my opinion that they are not. Nor am I clear as to why you care to make the distinction between what Big Finish does and what fanfiction does, or why there's a problem with labeling Big Finish's productions as fanfiction. It seems to be the same thing, with the addition of the copyright holders (who had no direct involvement in producing The Avengers in the first place) making their productions "legitimate" and, it is implied, of greater canonical or artistic value. If I've misinterpreted what you've said, I'm sorry, but there certainly appears to be a value judgement here.


Please explain where I have said fan fiction is "lesser". I have said, all along that it is different. It's not me that's using "glorified fan fiction" as a barb, after all.

And as for canon, we all have our individual ideas of what is canonical and what isn't. I don't consider the audios canonical, but that's just my personal take on things. YMMV.

Quote:
No, my criticisms are not blinkered any more than your praises are, and I resent that implication, or that this criticism is to be dismissed because I don't like the product.


I've not even praised the productions in this thread - the nearest I've got is to say that I disagree that Wadham's interpretation is a caricature.

I haven't said your criticism is to be dismissed, but that your opinions based on what you've heard are prejudicing you to subsequent releases. For instance, because you are highly critical of Julian Wadham you're prejudiced against the Diana adaptations.

I've enjoyed the Lost Episodes releases, and therefore am open-minded to these new adaptations. Yes, my opinion colours my being receptive to them, but I haven't come out and said they will be brilliant either. How can I know?


Why do you have a problem with calling these adaptations fanfiction? I don't get it. They ARE fanfiction, but they are also fanfiction that we have to pay for, and to call them anything else seems disingenuous. The difference, as you've stated it, seems to be that these are "professional." How is that not a value judgment? My whole point initially was that the difference is that we have to PAY for 'em.

"Prejudiced against" certainly seems to say that my criticism of anything else in regards to these adaptations is simply prejudice - I hope you recognize that there are reasons for my opinion that don't just come down to prejudice. You liked Julian Wadham as Steed; I don't, and what's more, I find him offensive, as I find these continued productions offensive to the show. Maybe I resent this because in order to have criticism listened to (and not dismissed as prejudice) I'm going to once again pay Big Finish to listen to their fanfiction, thus continuing to contribute to something that I find offensive. If I read a bad piece of fanfiction, I've lost nothing but time; Big Finish asks me to pay for it.
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Alan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a problem - it is a simple fact that a professional product is a professional product. I honestly cannot understand why you can't grasp what I'm saying on the subject.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan wrote:
I don't have a problem - it is a simple fact that a professional product is a professional product.


How is Big Finish any more professional than anything a fan writes? Except that they can ask for money. How is that not a value judgement?
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Alan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lhbizness wrote:
"Prejudiced against" certainly seems to say that my criticism of anything else in regards to these adaptations is simply prejudice - I hope you recognize that there are reasons for my opinion that don't just come down to prejudice. You liked Julian Wadham as Steed; I don't, and what's more, I find him offensive, as I find these continued productions offensive to the show. Maybe I resent this because in order to have criticism listened to (and not dismissed as prejudice) I'm going to once again pay Big Finish to listen to their fanfiction, thus continuing to contribute to something that I find offensive. If I read a bad piece of fanfiction, I've lost nothing but time; Big Finish asks me to pay for it.


If you don't like something (or don't expect to like it), don't buy it. If the only reason I had for buying something was to have my criticism listened to, then I'd spend my money elsewhere on something I did expect to enjoy.
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Alan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lhbizness wrote:
Alan wrote:
I don't have a problem - it is a simple fact that a professional product is a professional product.


How is Big Finish any more professional than anything a fan writes? Except that they can ask for money. How is that not a value judgement?


It isn't. Please see my previous replies.

I simply don't have time to continually repeat the same thing over and over when my message is plainly not getting through.

I have said all I wish to say in this thread.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan wrote:
Lhbizness wrote:
"Prejudiced against" certainly seems to say that my criticism of anything else in regards to these adaptations is simply prejudice - I hope you recognize that there are reasons for my opinion that don't just come down to prejudice. You liked Julian Wadham as Steed; I don't, and what's more, I find him offensive, as I find these continued productions offensive to the show. Maybe I resent this because in order to have criticism listened to (and not dismissed as prejudice) I'm going to once again pay Big Finish to listen to their fanfiction, thus continuing to contribute to something that I find offensive. If I read a bad piece of fanfiction, I've lost nothing but time; Big Finish asks me to pay for it.


If you don't like something (or don't expect to like it), don't buy it. If the only reason I had for buying something was to have my criticism listened to, then I'd spend my money elsewhere on something I did expect to enjoy.


The refrain "if you don't like it, don't buy it," silences criticism. If I don't like it, I shouldn't buy it. If I don't buy it, I can't listen to it; if I can't listen to it, I can't criticize it. I can't resent Big Finish bastardizing this show because I'm not required to buy their product, but if I buy it I am giving them money to continue to produce something I don't like. There's nothing to be done for it, but I don't think it's extreme to resent it.
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Last edited by Lhbizness on Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:33 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan wrote:
Lhbizness wrote:
Alan wrote:
I don't have a problem - it is a simple fact that a professional product is a professional product.


How is Big Finish any more professional than anything a fan writes? Except that they can ask for money. How is that not a value judgement?


It isn't. Please see my previous replies.

I simply don't have time to continually repeat the same thing over and over when my message is plainly not getting through.

I have said all I wish to say in this thread.


I'm sorry, all you appear to have said is that Big Finish is a professional product that is therefore different from fanfiction. What I am saying, in effect, is that the spirit is the same. But calling it professional certainly claims to distinguish professional from fanfiction - so, in that case, what is fanfiction to you? What space does it occupy?

(I am not trolling, I am legitimately trying to figure this out).
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Purrr
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all about respect, Alan, but let's face it that's a rarity in this modern “uber”commercial world, French copyright holder or not...
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Alan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, one last reply on this thread.

My point is that what Big Finish do and what fan writers do are different things. That does not imply that one is "better" than the other, just that they are different animals.

My comments regarding fan fiction in this thread have stemmed from the way in which posters here have used fan fiction as a barb (or have suggested that what Big Finish do is worse than fan fiction, which is similarly a barb). If anyone's making a value statement, it's not me.

I fully understand that the existence of the Big Finish Avengers offends some fans, yourself included, and I also understand how hard it is to let something go - even an off-shoot from the series like the audios - and just say "not for me". There's no part of The Avengers that I feel like that about, not even the movie, but there are other series I love - Doctor Who, for instance - where I feel completely disengaged from parts of the whole. I try to let them go, not watch, not get angry, but I often do - but other people enjoy those bits, so I just think "live and let live" and get on with enjoying what I do enjoy.

Unfortunately in terms of this thread, that includes the Big Finish Avengers, and I apologise if my bemusement at the saddening amount of negativity on display in this thread has caused me to say some things that have caused any upset.

Now, that is my last word on the subject.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan wrote:
OK, one last reply on this thread.

My point is that what Big Finish do and what fan writers do are different things. That does not imply that one is "better" than the other, just that they are different animals.

My comments regarding fan fiction in this thread have stemmed from the way in which posters here have used fan fiction as a barb (or have suggested that what Big Finish do is worse than fan fiction, which is similarly a barb). If anyone's making a value statement, it's not me.

I fully understand that the existence of the Big Finish Avengers offends some fans, yourself included, and I also understand how hard it is to let something go - even an off-shoot from the series like the audios - and just say "not for me". There's no part of The Avengers that I feel like that about, not even the movie, but there are other series I love - Doctor Who, for instance - where I feel completely disengaged from parts of the whole. I try to let them go, not watch, not get angry, but I often do - but other people enjoy those bits, so I just think "live and let live" and get on with enjoying what I do enjoy.

Unfortunately in terms of this thread, that includes the Big Finish Avengers, and I apologise if my bemusement at the saddening amount of negativity on display in this thread has caused me to say some things that have caused any upset.

Now, that is my last word on the subject.


I am still not clear how what Big Finish do and what fan writers do are different - they're both about world expansion, they're both technically non-canonical, and they're both a "filling in the blanks" of characters. I don't see the artistic difference.

For myself, my initial response to the idea of Big Finish being fanfiction was to make a joke out of it, because honestly I think it's pretty much one and the same. I write and read fanfiction. One of the points of pride of any fanfiction writer is that we're not paid for it: we do it purely on the basis of loving the show. I have seen several posters make comments about fanfiction as being "just about sex" and a lesser form of writing and of fandom. To then be told that these audios are quite obviously not fanfiction because they're "professional" further diminishes fanfiction: fanfiction isn't worthy enough to be classified with Big Finish. I resent then being told that Big Finish are just a bunch of fans who love the show, but they're in a different category because THEY are professional - it's tantamount to being told that my fandom isn't good enough.

I apologize for my negativity, but it is not an unexamined negativity purely there because I'm prejudiced. My negativity is reinforced by the fact that the first new products we get for The Avengers in many many years have been so consistently disappointing to me. Wadham's performance in particular has become a very sore point with me because it's so anathema to the Steed that became my favorite character. It offends me because I think it offends the character and Patrick Macnee. Having those concerns and that anger consistently dismissed only entrenches it more.

It is not my intention to make you or anyone feel badly for enjoying these adaptations, or to say that you shouldn't (though I am sorry that it may come off like that). It is my intention to make criticism heard and to be allowed to make it.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologies wholeheartedly for loosely using the term "fan fiction"... who knew it would start World War Z?

Alan is correct here, they are not fan fiction; in fact, they're not even new stories.
These are radio adaptations of the original stories produced in the Sixties in the Diana comics.
Big Finish are continuing in the same vein as The Lost Episodes, reworking already existing material.

End of story. If we have any more argument on the issue I may be forced to use a red card and someone can leave the pitch for a while.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just like the hideous feature film of "The Avengers" proved, there is only one Emma Peel, and that is Diana Rigg. And there is only one Steed, and that is Patrick Macnee. They are irreplaceable. I don't want to see anyone else in the roles. You can't top perfection the first time around.
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