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Quite Quite Fantastic! The Avengers for Modern Viewers
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Alan
A Touch of Brimstone


Joined: 01 Sep 2008
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Location: The Edge of Avengerland

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denis rigg wrote:
Hi Alan

Glad to hear you. Smile I agree with all the points you indicated. Despite, in our time there still are surprises when find the films even from the era of silent movies. It seems that never know what is really lost and what is not. For some kind of film can be devoted whole detailed topic about how many copies there were, where they were shown, to whom they were sold, where and when (with the mass of evidence) was destroyed and why this can not exist. But suddenly the film is found, after many many years. Frankly, I often am amazed at such cases when you actually begin to believe that there can not be any options for the existence of those or other films, and suddenly...
I think that for the existence of some lost Avengers series 1 tapes it's 50/50 percent (and I do not exclude it for the episodes of the Avengers radio series too). Wink


I can't agree with that, I'm afraid, Denis.

I think there's a very small chance that further film prints survive - and an even smaller chance that soundtracks do (these, by the nature, being home recordings and not archived anywhere official) - but that it's about 1% they survive, 99% they don't survive.

There were so few prints made (certainly less than 10 of each episode, probably more likely to be 2 or 3 per episode)... and the silent film analogy doesn't hold water in this case, as films were distributed to multiple screening locations at once, internationally, too. Hence hundreds of prints.

With TV you have 1 print going out to millions of viewers, wherever it is screened, so you're talking a handful of physical prints.

This is before we even consider that Series 1 was never repeated in the 60s or 70s and was never sold overseas.

It's an absolute miracle that we have anything at all, it really is.
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denis rigg
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great that I heard what I wanted to hear, Alan. Wink I'm happy that you believe there is at least one percent of the probability for it, it says you personally do not rule out such an opportunity. Well, it is not known what the future will bring - one thing is clear if there was a recent fantastic incredible miracle for the episode of the Tunnel of Fear, it definitely says that can expect other similar miracles, which are often difficult to explain - in one word "miracles".
In general, you have good experience in this field in contrast to me, Alan, I will agree Smile ... and yet wait. Wink
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Alan
A Touch of Brimstone


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, what I'm saying, essentially, is that we have had three miracles (Hot Snow footage, Girl on the Trapeze and now Tunnel of Fear). I don't rule out the possibility that another episode or two might still be out there to be found, but I'm certainly not holding my breath or falling into the trap of thinking "if those survive, then others must too".

Going back to the subject of off-air soundtracks, I'd say the chances of any of those turning up are about 1 in 5000.

There's also the concern that audio tape has a limited lifespan before it is unplayable, or at least very difficult to replay. I have had personal experience of radio recordings from the mid-50s that were so badly decayed and damaged that no replay was possible, by way of illustration.

Fortunately, polyester film (which the tele-recording prints are made of) lasts around 100 years, if well stored.
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QuiteQuiteFantastic
Thingumajig


Joined: 02 May 2018
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Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think we can really put a percentage on whether they survive or not. Whatever number we select is primarily an arbitrary one. Technically speaking, the films are already there...or not. It's a Schrödinger's cat scenario. "The Enemy of the World" and "The Web of Fear" Doctor Who episodes were already in Jos, Nigeria for all of 35 years after it was discovered they were lost in the late seventies. We just didn't know it until we opened the box. I think this is at the heart of what Denis is saying. Never say never, we just don't know, etc.

On the other hand, what Alan is really talking about is the probability that the film prints were destroyed in the 1960s. Looking at it that way, I admit the chances are slim that they survive, but surprising things do happen.

As for audios, I was already aware of Doctor Who audios as early as the late eighties, and they were probably circulating among British fans even earlier than that. If there were audios of The Avengers, I think they would have turned up by now.

Michael
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Alan
A Touch of Brimstone


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the figures that I've quoted are a gauge of my personal expectation. TBH, my expectation is for zero finds, but I hope to be proven wrong as I was with Tunnel of Fear.

The problem isn't just whether they are out there, it's whether they can actually be found if they are. It's like looking for a needle in a world full of haystacks.

And that's why we should be grateful for what we do have (many British TV shows from the 1960s are far worse off in terms of their archive) - and that people like Michael publish well thought out books that continue the conversation about the series... and hopefully connect with the modern viewers of the title!
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QuiteQuiteFantastic
Thingumajig


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Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan wrote:
And that's why we should be grateful for what we do have (many British TV shows from the 1960s are far worse off in terms of their archive) - and that people like Michael publish well thought out books that continue the conversation about the series... and hopefully connect with the modern viewers of the title!


And that is indeed one of the reasons for my having chosen to write a new book. Little did I know that there many other excellent books I was unaware of at the time! Wink

Michael
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mrspeel01
Thingumajig


Joined: 20 May 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have nothing substantial to add to the discussion around audio recordings, as it has been well covered now. I will just add that I am in the camp that believe in "miracles" along with Denis! Yes, of course, logic dictates... But Denis talked so well about the nature of private collectors often not realising the gems in their collection. Conversely there are private collectors who delight in having something no one else has. As the person(s) who allegedly stole Doctor Who episode 3 of the Web of fear from the Nigerian vault after it had been found and catalogued. Sometimes it is the "heirs" of a collector who discover things from their "vaults" or keep-safes that allow them to be "found" after so many years.

A few years ago I purchased one of the original electronic press kits for The Avengers film 1998. The full length behind-the-scenes interviews etc not shown on TV or in the "making of" produced at the time etc were on a VHS tape. The dealer i purchased it from had thoughtfully copied the contents to DVD, and by now, may well have made digital copies so that the material survives. What is my point? Well, a private collector who knew that an audio recording on reel-to-reel would deterioate could (word chosen specifically) have copied it to cassette tape for preservation, as that dealer had done with the EPK. Admittedly the dealer had something much more recent and new technologies were readily available but it is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Yes, again logic dictates and the percentages are minimal. But hope is strong and I believe we must always have it.

Ron


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denis rigg
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And it gives good inspiration to wander through your website through the Internet archive for nostalgic memories, Michael. Smile I have not read your book yet, but I'm wondering what will be the sensations after I take care of this after reading your material in online. Well, it's just sort of the experiment. Wink
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QuiteQuiteFantastic
Thingumajig


Joined: 02 May 2018
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Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denis rigg wrote:
And it gives good inspiration to wander through your website through the Internet archive for nostalgic memories, Michael. Smile I have not read your book yet, but I'm wondering what will be the sensations after I take care of this after reading your material in online. Well, it's just sort of the experiment. Wink


The book will be a completely new experience for you. Everything was very much updated. Almost all the reviews were rewritten completely. For example, there is almost no similarity between the website review and the book review for "The Grave-diggers". In some cases, I said basically the same things--season five is the closest--but everything was rephrased and improved at a minimum. Also, my former writing partner's reviews were, of course, not included in the book. He and I parted ways in 2001.

I'm glad you're enjoying the old website though. Frankly, I find some of my writing on that site embarrassing now! Embarassed

Michael
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James C McFetridge
White Dwarf


Joined: 20 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My hardback copy of this arrived today. Haven't had a chance to have a good read at it yet, but it looks like it's going to be fun.
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QuiteQuiteFantastic
Thingumajig


Joined: 02 May 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for letting me know, James! I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

By the way, I know it's easy to forget, but if any of you have read the book already and wouldn't mind, I would very much appreciate a review or at least a rating on the Lulu website. Thanks so much.

Michael
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QuiteQuiteFantastic
Thingumajig


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good news! I was able to get Lulu to improve the preview of the cover of the paperback edition of Quite Quite Fantastic! It was probably due to digital compression or something to that effect. I'll have to remind them that I have another version of the book available in hardcover, but it looks much better now, almost as good as it does in print and in person.

Michael
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