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denis
Have Fingers... Will Type!
Joined: 06 Sep 2008
Posts: 308
Location: France
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 Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| Allard wrote: | | I think it's a good thing people are proud of their own language and don't sell out to English, but subtitles are a superior translating system compared to dubbing. Because the acting performance is not harmed, you can still check if the translation was correct and you can actually learn a bit of another language. |
Watching a British series with English subtitles is very good to improve English.
Once again, I do not think subtitles are the problem for broadcasting Cathy Gale seasons.
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Norbert
Nutshell
Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Allard wrote: | | but subtitles are a superior translating system compared to dubbing. |
No, they are not. You have to read the dialogues you are hearing in order to understand them. | Allard wrote: | | Because the acting performance is not harmed, you can still check if the translation was correct and you can actually learn a bit of another language. |
Not necessarily. Think of a movie shot in a language you never learned, e. g. Japanese. You do not know how accurate the translation really is. And if the actors talk very fast the subtitles must be very condensed.
Furthermore, there are also international co-productions which have no real original language. The German actors talk in German, the French in French and the Italians in Italian. Later, the French and Italian sentences are dubbed into German for the German version, the German and Italian sentences are dubbed into French for the French version, and the German and French sentences are dubbed into Italian for the Italian version. The Dutch version is subtitled - but what soundtrack is used? |
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Allard
The Ministry
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 1719
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Well I never experienced reading subtitles and watching the film as real intellectually challenging, but having subtitles in English to accompany an English soundtrack is the most pleasant. Same goes for German by the way.
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Philippa
The Big Thinker
Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 1381
Location: Amsterdam
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| Norbert wrote: | | Allard wrote: | | but subtitles are a superior translating system compared to dubbing. |
No, they are not. You have to read the dialogues you are hearing in order to understand them.
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You can't just say "they are not". You might experience it that way, but others might have a different opinion.
I respect that fact that people prefer watching dubbed tv series and films, to each their own, and it's also what you're used to.
I live partially in the Netherlands where nothing is dubbed apart from children's tv, and partially in France where everything is dubbed so I get to see both sides of the story.
Neighbours and other people I know here in France, don't mind the dubbing at all because they're used to it, they don't know any better, and the people I know in the Netherlands prefer subtitles because they're used to that.
Preferring one to the other doesn't make the other one necessarily worse.
I'm just saying that by subtitling, you tend to pick up a lot from different languages, and it enables you to learn other languages easier.
I myself for instance, I learned English just by watching tv! I could read full English books by the time I was 10 and I had never had one English lesson in school. Maybe I'm a bad example because not everyone picks up languages as easy as I do, but I do know that most of the people I know can understand and speak English to some extend, which is something I can't say about my French friends.
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Allard
The Ministry
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 1719
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| The great thing now is that with DVD you can usually choose, wheter you want dubbing or the original. If they have the decency to provide both. |
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Dandy Forsdyke
Diabolical Mastermind
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 5281
Location: Camberwick Green
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| Philippa wrote: | | I myself for instance, I learned English just by watching tv! I could read full English books by the time I was 10 and I had never had one English lesson in school. |
Wow, I'm impressed. I can't even get my head around how you could do that.
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Norbert
Nutshell
Joined: 26 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Allard wrote: | | The great thing now is that with DVD you can usually choose, wheter you want dubbing or the original. If they have the decency to provide both. |
100 % agree.  I am very fond of having the choice between several languages. It is sometimes very interesting to compare how some scenes are transferred into other languages.
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Avengerholic
Epic
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| denis wrote: | In fact, it's quite boring most of the time and I fell once asleep in front of my TV set !!  |
While indeed technically inferior, there is nothing boring about the Gale era. IMO that says more about the viewer than the story. |
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Norbert
Nutshell
Joined: 26 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:28 am Post subject: |
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There are some Gale episodes, I really like, for example MR. TEDDY BEAR. But one has to be aware of the fact that the style of the series was quite different.
(I have bought seasons 2 and 3 from France, and I would also buy German DVDs of these early seasons - even without German audio. But I am afraid I am - almost - the only one.)
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Dorothy: And you are - what we call in revenge business - next.
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Philippa
The Big Thinker
Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 1381
Location: Amsterdam
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Dandy Forsdyke wrote: | | Philippa wrote: | | I myself for instance, I learned English just by watching tv! I could read full English books by the time I was 10 and I had never had one English lesson in school. |
Wow, I'm impressed. I can't even get my head around how you could do that. |
Neither can I 
To be honest, I don't even know how that happened. I can't remember a time when I wasn't able to understand English. It just sort of feels like a 2nd language to me, I never had any problems understanding or speaking it.
I wish all languages would come to me this easy, especially right now, since I'm studying Arabic. It's so incredibly hard and at the moment I feel like I'll never master it 
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Dandy Forsdyke
Diabolical Mastermind
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Philippa, you must have been an English girl in another life...
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denis
Have Fingers... Will Type!
Joined: 06 Sep 2008
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Location: France
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Norbert wrote: | | There are some Gale episodes, I really like, for example MR. TEDDY BEAR. But one has to be aware of the fact that the style of the series was quite different. |
This one would have made a good remake for season 4 contrary to The £50,000 Breakfast.
I watched 12 Cathy Gale and I think that many fans prefer the series from season four for a few reasons : poor quality of the picture (and the sound as well, I have to put headphones !), many stories have nothing Avengeresque compared with the b&w Emma Peel for instance. Steed is not the character you know.
These are the reasons why Arte is not going to broadcast seasons 2 and 3. In France, these seasons were broadcast in the 90s on a series channel.
That can be surprising to read that fans dare to write that some seasons or episodes are boring but it is a fact. With only these seasons, the series would never have been known world-wide !
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Last edited by denis on Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Philippa
The Big Thinker
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Location: Amsterdam
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Dandy Forsdyke wrote: | | Philippa, you must have been an English girl in another life... |
I guess I must've been
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Avengerholic
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Joined: 01 Sep 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| denis wrote: | That can be surprising to read that fans dare to write that some seasons or episodes are boring but it is a fact
With only these seasons, the series would never have been known world-wide ! |
... It's not fact !
And without them it would never have been known at all !
Last edited by Avengerholic on Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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denis
Have Fingers... Will Type!
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Location: France
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Avengerholic wrote: | | denis wrote: | | With only these seasons, the series would never have been known world-wide ! |
... And without them it would never have been known at all ! |
It is a fact, indeed.
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Courier13
Thingumajig
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 53
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| Norbert wrote: | Think of a movie shot in a language you never learned, e. g. Japanese. You do not know how accurate the translation really is. And if the actors talk very fast the subtitles must be very condensed.
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Have you ever watched something with subtitles? The above quote seems to indicate that you haven't.
| Norbert wrote: |
Furthermore, there are also international co-productions which have no real original language. The German actors talk in German, the French in French and the Italians in Italian. Later, the French and Italian sentences are dubbed into German for the German version, the German and Italian sentences are dubbed into French for the French version, and the German and French sentences are dubbed into Italian for the Italian version. The Dutch version is subtitled - but what soundtrack is used? |
The original soundtrack. Why would we (the dutch) use a german or italian soundtrack Is this a trick question?
Other points raised in this thread:
- The Cathy Gale seasons are also very good, though Season 2 does suffer from poor picture quality and sound (people who state that Season 3 also has this problem are probably putting all the Cathy episodes on one heap).
- Steed in Season 4 is the same Steed as in Season 3. The other Seasons all feature a Steed different from those two seasons (or even from eachother).
- Dubbing is bad if only (other reasons aside) for picking up other languages. There is a reason why most of the French people (and to a lesser extent the Germans) are not able to speak English (apart from being stubborn).
- Yes, it is true that English is very easy to pick up for the Dutch (partly due to the subtitles), as I could also speak and read English by the age of 10 or 11. This was achieved by watching lots of BBC programmes, people tend to forget that English subtitles (with the English spoken word) also helps one to learn a language easier. |
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ricardomartins
Thingumajig
Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Mem Martins, Portugal
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Courier13 wrote: | | Norbert wrote: | Think of a movie shot in a language you never learned, e. g. Japanese. You do not know how accurate the translation really is. And if the actors talk very fast the subtitles must be very condensed.
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Have you ever watched something with subtitles? The above quote seems to indicate that you haven't.
| Norbert wrote: |
Furthermore, there are also international co-productions which have no real original language. The German actors talk in German, the French in French and the Italians in Italian. Later, the French and Italian sentences are dubbed into German for the German version, the German and Italian sentences are dubbed into French for the French version, and the German and French sentences are dubbed into Italian for the Italian version. The Dutch version is subtitled - but what soundtrack is used? |
The original soundtrack. Why would we (the dutch) use a german or italian soundtrack Is this a trick question?
Other points raised in this thread:
- The Cathy Gale seasons are also very good, though Season 2 does suffer from poor picture quality and sound (people who state that Season 3 also has this problem are probably putting all the Cathy episodes on one heap).
- Steed in Season 4 is the same Steed as in Season 3. The other Seasons all feature a Steed different from those two seasons (or even from eachother).
- Dubbing is bad if only (other reasons aside) for picking up other languages. There is a reason why most of the French people (and to a lesser extent the Germans) are not able to speak English (apart from being stubborn).
- Yes, it is true that English is very easy to pick up for the Dutch (partly due to the subtitles), as I could also speak and read English by the age of 10 or 11. This was achieved by watching lots of BBC programmes, people tend to forget that English subtitles (with the English spoken word) also helps one to learn a language easier. |
Courier 13's and Philippa are damn right. I identify very much with Netherlands because in Portugal we never - EVER - dub foreign films. That's probably the main reason why I'm so fluent in English, not because of what I learned in the (rather old fashioned) portuguese school.
Norbert and people who prefer dubbed movies will always prefer dubbed versions of "The Avengers" - that has been like that since 1927 - since sound appeared on Cinema. At that time, French and Germans were highly nationalistic, they couldn't even bear the shame of people speaking a foreign language on screen. I'm sorry to speak so bluntly but that's how germans and french were.
In Portugal, we consider dubbing very corny (we often make fun of Brazilians because they dub almost everything), and we are very good talking in other languages like people in Netherlands. As far as I know we dub here because Portugal had a high rate of illeteracy around 1927 so, to make people read more, the ministry of Culture opted for using subtitles and original sound instead of dubbing. I can find another very good reason for doing so - there's been a long time that Portugal is not a rich country (since the 16th century), so we managed to have some humility and begin to learn some other languages.
When I hear some spanish, french, german and italian folks state very proudly "I speak very good english" that usually makes me burst in laugh, because when they begin to speak NO english person can understand them at all.
Personally, I can't imagine a series like "The Avengers" without subtitles. Here's the prove: "The Avengers" are highly known here in Portugal, in Brazil it only aired twice since the 60's and it's almost unknown. Why? Brazilians dub, instead of using subtitles. They loose 50 % of the meaning and charm of the series.
Last edited by ricardomartins on Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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denis
Have Fingers... Will Type!
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| ricardomartins wrote: | Norbert and people who prefer dubbed movies will always prefer dubbed versions of "The Avengers" - that has been like that since 1927 - since sound appeared on Cinema. At that time, French and Germans were highly nationalistic, they couldn't even bear the shame of people speaking a foreign language on screen. I'm sorry to speak so bluntly but that's how germans and french were.
In Portugal, we consider dubbing very corny (we often make fun of Brazilians because they dub almost everything), and we are very good talking in other languages like people in Netherlands. |
I'm French and I do prefer watching The Avengers in English; there is always the possibility to let English subtitles in case of some misunderstanding. Subtitles in English or other languages are needed on the Cathy Gale seasons because of the poor quality of the sound. Dubbing films has nothing to do with nationalistic ideas (what a stupid idea!). That's only because German and French languages are more learnt around the world than Portuguese and Flemish ! That's all !
I can say that I have been many times in Portugal and Germany and the Germans are more apt to speak English than the Portuguese...
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Philippa
The Big Thinker
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Location: Amsterdam
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:27 am Post subject: |
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I don't think it has much to do with nationalism/patriotism either to be honest.
It is true that it's not really worth it to dub tv series and films to some languages because it's not worth all the trouble. For instance with Dutch/Flemish and Portuguese to name a few. Ofcourse many people around the world speak French or Spanish for instance, so it would make all the work worthwile.
But on the other hand, everything in Italy is dubbed as well and apart from Italy and a part of Switzerland, there isn't another country in the world where they speak Italian. So it continues to be odd.
I just think, and this opinion won't change, that dubbing takes away a lot of charm and you completely loose touch with the general feeling of the show. In my opinion it's a shame to dub, because first of all you can learn a lot from watching series and films in their original language, and second of all because it's just not the same.
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Allard
The Ministry
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| This does probably go back far before TV, merchants from smaller countries like the Netherlands or Portugal usually adapted to speaking the languages of other nations like France and Germany. The peoples of smaller nations are used to adapt and the peoples of larger nations are used to everything in their own language. |
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