The Avengers International Fan Forum Forum Index The Avengers International Fan Forum

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Avengers in widescreen?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Avengers International Fan Forum Forum Index -> The Avengers on home video (DVD/Blu-Ray/VHS/VoD/and others)
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
davidf
Little Wonder


Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Avengerland Forever

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:44 am    Post subject: The Avengers in widescreen? Reply with quote

Finally got my hands on a series 5 Box set with the correct V3 discs.

Now, here, take a look at this very interesting and informative compararison :

This is the original A&E DVD, from the 1993 Lumiere VHS masters.



This is the Studio Canal restoration



This is the difference between both framings



This is what happens when you take the original, 1999 DVD top and bottom framing, and keep the sides of the new HD restoration.



Guess how it comes back to... surprise... surprise 1.77:1 Smile

Strange, ennit?!

Note that it's just a random example shot. The 4/3 framing look like it has been ajusted from shot to shot on the restoration, and it's kinda weird and off balance in many shots (off top and / or bottom, I didn't notice anything off on the sides).

Anyway I like it Smile


Last edited by davidf on Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Alan
A Touch of Brimstone


Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 2987
Location: The Edge of Avengerland

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting. Certainly it's possible to keep all of what was most likely the original broadcast picture information, plus more at the sides. It does demonstrate just how zoomed in those old transfers were too.
_________________
Alan
--
Hidden Tiger Books
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
davidf
Little Wonder


Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Avengerland Forever

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually they weren't zoomed, (well technically, they were), they were the extraction from the TV transmitted area, which is standard on many sixties series, only it's a middle extraction (on other series, it might be an off centered, right extraction as you can see here for Star Trek Next Generation :



I browsed a few episodes on the new Optimum box set, and I compared with the old DVDs, and the new box sets have framing variations from shot to shot. I'm guessing in some sequence, the people in charge tried to adjust to what they thought was the best framing. Somehow, in this shot, they used the whole frame. (Perhaps they adjusted back when the shot was too grainy?)

Anyway it shows an alternative, 16/9 version, if done properly, would not compromise the original TV transmission compositions, and would just add to the sides.

Already, the remasters have added top, left and right information and sometimes bottom, so the original framing is not respected anymore (thought the 4/3 framing is still there, what we can see inside changed).

I think, also on the B&W series, there's too much top information (empty air above heads) and you can see where the original common top line was because the actors often move to come below that invisible line. So a widescreen version would fix that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sinus1994
Winged Avenger


Joined: 07 Dec 2011
Posts: 604
Location: Hidden under Mrs Peel's bed

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, that's a very interesting fact...
Thanks for advising us of this fact, seventeen! Very Happy

Sincerely yours,
Sinus1994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
davidf
Little Wonder


Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Avengerland Forever

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's some more :



That is the areas on an Academy-width 35 mm spherical film print viewfinder layed over the HD restored frame.

Note that they don't fit exactly, because Studio Canal did the restoration master on 1.33:1 ratio, but you get the point.

1. Camera aperture YELLOW
2. Academy ratio, 1.37-1 BLUE
3. 1.85-1 Ratio GREEN
4. 1.66-1 Ratio PINK
5. Television scanned area
6. Television "action safe" area
7. Television "title safe" area

As you can see, the original, A&E framing is very close to the exact Television "action safe" area, thought it 's a bit adjusted too high vertically.

In theory, the restoration should not move the framing from shot to shot, it should be constant, at the exact "action safe" delimitation. As you can see, 1.66:1(pink) is pretty close to the action safe.

If you use the yellow parts of the image on the side, you end up with a widescreen master in 1.66:1 (pink) that faithfully represent the initial, "action safe" intended vertical framing, while adding to the sides. That is how many of those TV shows were transformed for the big screen when theatrical showing of some episodes compiled into one movie occured.


Last edited by davidf on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
davidf
Little Wonder


Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Avengerland Forever

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, in this scene from the remaster of "HOW TO SUCCEED... AT MURDER?", you may all have noticed we can see the cameraman foot on the left corner of the frame.

Actually, (assuming the scan covers the whole frame), this would have been invisible on TV, as the added on viewfinder shows.

That's probably very close to what he would have seen on his viewfinder, so it wasn't a technical mistake. However, letting it be seen on the remaster is.

Funnily, we can also see it on the LUMIERE 1993 master, so for those transferts, they already did an approximation of what the intended frame was supposed to be.

If this episode was transferred in widescreen, you would just need to either tilt up the frame a bit, or zoom-in, to cover this "error".

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Alan
A Touch of Brimstone


Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 2987
Location: The Edge of Avengerland

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good work! If only someone at Studio Canal would take as much time and care over The Avengers...
_________________
Alan
--
Hidden Tiger Books
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sinus1994
Winged Avenger


Joined: 07 Dec 2011
Posts: 604
Location: Hidden under Mrs Peel's bed

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan wrote:
Good work! If only someone at Studio Canal would take as much time and care over The Avengers...

Very good work seventeen!
You're quite right Alan...

Sincerely yours,
Sinus1994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
davidf
Little Wonder


Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Avengerland Forever

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a demo comparison between 4:3 and 16:9 that I'm sure many of you will find interesting Smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNf7f44pAb4

Note that it was made possible because in that particular instance, the whole of the frame is accidentaly revealed on the Optimum master, including all the space top and bottom never intended to be seen in 4:3.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sinus1994
Winged Avenger


Joined: 07 Dec 2011
Posts: 604
Location: Hidden under Mrs Peel's bed

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting...
Thanks for sharing seventeen. Very Happy

Sincerely yours,
Sinus1994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
davidf
Little Wonder


Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Avengerland Forever

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some stuff I found : the opening credits of the color Riggs have different titles placements from the original series when compared to both the A&E masters and the old VHS airings (some you can find on youtube).

Also, the footage is framed too wide in many shots. I wonder if they redid them. You can see it clearly on the producers credits, where Brian Clemens credits have dropped a bit (it was previously closer to Albert Fennell credit).

Funny bit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Alan
A Touch of Brimstone


Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 2987
Location: The Edge of Avengerland

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seventeen wrote:
Here's a demo comparison between 4:3 and 16:9 that I'm sure many of you will find interesting Smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNf7f44pAb4

Note that it was made possible because in that particular instance, the whole of the frame is accidentaly revealed on the Optimum master, including all the space top and bottom never intended to be seen in 4:3.


Fascinating and very acceptable.
_________________
Alan
--
Hidden Tiger Books
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dissolute
The Ministry


Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 1794
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would still rather see the full frame and, as I've written before, have the 1.33:1 as a different 'angle' on the DVD (or, if you're fussy, 1.33 as the default angle and full frame as the option).

The chances of us knowing what the framing at the time was, now (unless you get your hands on a broadcast print), is close to zero. Every print I've ever seen of "How to Succeed" has that foot in frame.

Actually, I might still have my recordings of the Australian broadcast prints for series 5 but no longer have a VHS player.
I've recorded some of the reruns digitally, so I'll check them out and post some screenshots.
_________________
Mrs Peel, you're needed!
http://www.dissolute.com.au/the-avengers-tv-series/
Every episode from 1961 to 1977 plus more trivia than you can shake a brolly at.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
davidf
Little Wonder


Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Avengerland Forever

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dissolute wrote:
The chances of us knowing what the framing at the time was, now (unless you get your hands on a broadcast print), is close to zero. Every print I've ever seen of "How to Succeed" has that foot in frame.


On the contrary, the viewfinder tell us what the intended for TV framing was.

Quote:
Actually, I might still have my recordings of the Australian broadcast prints for series 5 but no longer have a VHS player.
I've recorded some of the reruns digitally, so I'll check them out and post some screenshots.


That would have to be a VHS recording from the 70's, not anything from the 80's onward where the show was already on broacast tapes. However that could be good to check for the color timing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dissolute
The Ministry


Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 1794
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Australian broadcast masters have been in use since '68 (and show it!)
I'll see what I can dig out.
_________________
Mrs Peel, you're needed!
http://www.dissolute.com.au/the-avengers-tv-series/
Every episode from 1961 to 1977 plus more trivia than you can shake a brolly at.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
davidf
Little Wonder


Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Avengerland Forever

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out the tight framing on the french opening credits, it's very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTjaLsmwDb4

The top and bottom framing correspond exactly to the one you would have if you would crop the current set to 1.66:1.

I think there were over the years two sets of english credits because the placements of the credits over the footage change. Also, one set, the one currently used, shows at the moment the cork pops something on the left bottom side of the frame that looks like someone who is pulling the cork, or move out of frame. You can see it clearly on a computer viewing the DVD.

This blunder is on french copies from the time the series re-aired in 1987. It was never on the old, 16mm prints like this one above.

You can see something is off on the Optimum remasters on this opening, because when the Emma Credits comes, she is unbelievably low in the frame (ie her heads top at the two thirds of the frame maximum, when she on the old credits tops at the "common top" invisible line.

There's also the geometry of the framing on the shadows when they are at the table and Steed moves in to fill the glass. It's perfectly balanced on the old french print framing, but it's totally off on the new Optimum version.

Finally, when Steed puts on his hat, there's an editing double action on the french credits set, Steed makes the same move adjusting the hat, twice, in two different shots.

The current set uses the same angles, but Steed only adjust his hat once. Anyone noticed?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Alan
A Touch of Brimstone


Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 2987
Location: The Edge of Avengerland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original British screening would most likely have been live telecines from film, so framings would have varied from one screening to the next dependent on how each telecine operator set the frame.
_________________
Alan
--
Hidden Tiger Books
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
davidf
Little Wonder


Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Avengerland Forever

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually they were 16mm prints Smile I know because they used to break during transmission, so technicians had to repair on the spot and resume transmission.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Allard
The Ministry


Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 1715
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting, seventeen, very interesting!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mousemeat
A Touch of Brimstone


Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 4285
Location: Elvis Central, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan wrote:
Good work! If only someone at Studio Canal would take as much time and care over The Avengers...


my thoughts exactly..if only the series had someone at Studio,who was a 'fan' and
made sure the best possible treatment was extended to the release schedule, etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Avengers International Fan Forum Forum Index -> The Avengers on home video (DVD/Blu-Ray/VHS/VoD/and others) All times are GMT - 9 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group. Hosted by phpBB.BizHat.com

Free Web Hosting | File Hosting | Photo Gallery | Matrimonial


Powered by PhpBB.BizHat.com, setup your forum now!
For Support, visit Forums.BizHat.com